Limited Atonement

[Reader]

~L~

LIMITED = Restricted, circumscribed, confined within bounds, maximized quantity.

ATONEMENT = Appeasement, cleansing, pardon, forgive, purification, reconciliation.

Interesting enough, when one approaches a study of the doctrine of Limited Atonement, it is discovered that all of the references to the word "atonement" are found in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament the Greek word for atonement, “katallage” is only used once in Romans 5:11, and is translated, “reconciled.”

That is because, the ritual of atonement was only a temporary appeasement to keep the people “at one” with God until they Elect Seed within them came as promised. Atonement did not save a single soul, nor did the ritual remit any sins. It was just a stop-gap to keep judgment and death at bay, until the Messiah would come.

The Hebrew word for atonement most often describes mercies received through appeasement, purging, cleansing, etc. practiced by the Jewish nation of Israel. The ritual of atonement came through instruction and command from God, after Moses had delivered the Ten Commandments (Law) to the Jews, designating specific sin. Atonement was the means for the Jew to find temporal forgiveness of his sins, but the rituals of atonement, by necessity, were continually repeated from year to year.

“Therefore, not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book (of the Law) itself and all the people, saying, ‘This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.’ Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.” Hebrews 9:18-22

Jewish atonement consisted of animal sacrifice and blood offerings, presented to God within the tabernacle and/or temple by the earthly priesthood established by covenant with the Tribe of Levi. But this shedding of animal blood only covered sins for a time, but did not permanently remit sin:

“For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could (permanently) take away sins.” Hebrews 10:4

“. . It was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.” Hebrews 9:23

Therefore, the Old Covenant worship under the Law and the practice of finding atonement for one’s sins, is not the model the New Covenant believer follows, for it was temporal by nature and only meant to afford the nation of Israel survival from God’s judgments until the promised Seed came into the world. All of the ordinances and ministry of the priesthood, were earthly examples of heavenly truths, and the permanent reconciliation the Messiah would work between God and man. All of the blood of innocent animals pointed to the eventual, innocent blood Christ would shed on the cross as the final and perfect and everlasting offering to God.

“The Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was no yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was standing. It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience .concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Holy Place, once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through eternal Spirit, offered Himself without spot to God, to cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the New Covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.” Hebrews 9:8-15

So in that regard, this doctrine is often more accurately named “Particular Redemption.” “Redemption” in place of the word “atonement” better describes the full ransom (Mark 10:45) Christ paid with His blood to free His people from enslavement to sin, death, and the devil . . .permanently and forever. And “Particular” describes Christ’s redemption as being personal, individual, and sure to save those specific persons the Father gave Him to save. No other people, but this elect and particular people were represented in Christ’s body when He suffered the wrath of God on their behalf.

“So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him, He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.” Hebrews 9:28

These alone have been freed from fear of judgment, and the second death will have no power over them. (Rev. 20:6, 2:11) Their justification is certain and sure because it forensically offset all the offenses they ever commit. Christ paid the full cost for sin (death) and fulfilled all the legalities necessary to redeem His people. They will surely be saved. But “Limited Atonement” has stuck since it makes an easy acronym to remember.

Just as the ritual of atonement was limited to the Jewish nation of Israel under the first covenant, but not provided for the world at large, so the atonement of Jesus Christ was limited and meant to reconcile a particular people to God.

“Limited” by no means insufficient to save any more than were saved. The power of Christ’s blood was sufficient to save the entire human race, but it was not the will of God to save all men universally. The limitation rested not in any incapacity of Jesus Christ, but in God’s plan and purposes, according to election. God’s grace is particular in nature, and not common to mankind. Grace does not float around the globe as a commodity to be utilized; but grace and truth is only gifted and revealed to those God knows and loves in the Elect. For it is the Elect Son, who is “full of grace and truth.”

So it can be said, that even if Jesus died for every person, excepting perhaps just the sons of perdition, His atonement (Redemption) would still have been limited (particular in nature and purpose). Enemies of Christ hate this truth because unlimited atonement seems nicer and an easier message to preach. It is better received by the masses. But redemption was particular to those known and named by God before the foundation of the world.

And those people are “called,” to receive God’s grace.

“. . Whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” Romans 8:30

“Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, ‘Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. . . .I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours; You gave them to Me . . .I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours . . .Keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be One as We are. . .They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world . . .And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.” John 17:1,2,6,9,11,16,19

The cross ushered in the New Covenant, the better sacrifice, the permanent reconciliation between God and man. And not just for the benefit of those of the Jewish race, but to save Gentiles from out of every nation in the world.

“The Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was out tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized in Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek; there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to promise.” Galatians 3:22-29

This passage not only describes the global and all inclusive nature of the New Covenant of Grace, in which all ethnicities and classes of individuals would participate, but it also delineates the limitation of Christ’s offering to “Abraham’s seed,” according to the eternal Covenant promises given to him and his descendents.

This was not racial or nationalistic. Abraham had produced two sons, who had formed very different nations and cultures. God had bless through the son Isaac, and his son, Jacob to establish the twelve tribes of Israel. Within this nation of Israel, would exist the Godly lineage of the promised Seed, the Messiah, within whom lived as yet unborn the elect and spiritual Israel of God. Ishmael was restricted from this covenant and his descendents are not promised everlasting, spiritual inheritance with the Messiah. The OT atonements were limited to the descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob specifically.

Rather, this New Covenant promised grace and faith for Gentiles as well as Jews. Gentiles were to be included as the spiritual children of Abraham, when they evidenced the grace of God had gifted them with the same faith to believe in the Covenant promises of everlasting life in Christ. This was very hard for the Jews to accept, because for their entire history, they were the chosen people of God above all other nations. The entire ministry of Jesus Christ was to prepare the Jews for this change in spiritual economy. The mission of the Apostles was to convey and convince the Jews that Gentile nations from all the world would share in status as “sons of God.” It is these very teachings, speaking of “all” peoples, of the “world” receiving forgiveness of sins through the atonement of Jesus Christ that was so misunderstood by the Jews, and be people still in our day.

Jesus Christ came into the world to be the propitiation for the sins of the world. Not universally, for Jesus did not die except for those particular people the Father elected to give Him, but rather, Jesus died for sins throughout the world committed by individuals of other ethnic groups and nations, besides the nation of Israel. IOW’s Jesus did not come to die for “Jewish sins, but “worldy sins” common to all men. Jesus did not save all men universally, but Jesus saved all kinds of men, as quoted in the Galatians passage: Jews AND Greeks, slaves AND free, male AND female, kings AND commoners, rich AND poor, etc. All kinds of men have been made One in Christ through the workings of the Holy Spirit bringing men out of all the world’s nations into union with the Christ. To the praise of God:

“You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God, and we shall reign on the hearth . . .a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes.” Rev. 5:9 and 7:9

These are the elect sons of God found in the Elect Son of God, Jesus Christ. ALL these persons out of the entire WORLD make up the invisible church of God, as described in Hebrews:

“ . .You have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.” Hebrews 12:22-24

“. . Rejoice because your names are written in heaven.” Luke 10:20

“ . . Who labored with me in the gospel . . and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.” Phil. 4:3

Jesus Christ came into the world as the federal head and representative of these elect persons, to vicariously live a perfect life of obedience under the Law, so that His righteousness might be imputed to their account. He represented the sins of this elect people by taking their offenses upon His own body, and lifting the sins up on the cross, to suffer God’s wrath as their substitute. He suffered their physical death in their stead, and the equivalent of their eternal death in their place. He overcame death to resurrect and ascend back to the Father and glory to demonstrate and assure His people that they, too, would be raised to everlasting life on the last day. Meanwhile, He sent His spirit to convey this power of life to the sons of God, so that they might reckon themselves alive from the dead to serve righteousness, and conform to His image.

“We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us.” II Cor. 4:7

All for whom Christ sacrificed Himself will be saved without fail. ALL of them. Christ’s cross work redeemed ALL those the Father gave Him to save. The Elect Son purchased ALL the elect and freed them from enslavement to the fear of death.

“’Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.’ Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and released those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For indeed He does not give aid to the angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.” Hebrews 2:13-16

Take note: Again God reveals the same limitation as to who will be reconciled back with God. The faithful “seed of Abraham.”

Galatians 3:16 “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16

The promise of everlasting reconciliation is not made to all seeds, but to One Seed, the Savior, who was the Seed promised to Eve in Genesis 3:15.

The Everlasting Covenant was made between the Father and His Son. Thus, the final atonement was for the benefit of the Seed, Jesus Christ. He is both Testator and heir of the eternal Covenant of God. He is the Elect Seed of God, and within this Elect, all elect souls are known by God. It was for the sake of His elect that Jesus vicariously suffered and died. His atonement was limited to them, for they alone would share in His promised inheritance of an everlasting Kingdom.

What was the faith of Abraham, that this seed is to also manifest?

“He (Abraham) did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore, ‘it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ Now it was not for his sake alone that it (righteousness) was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.” Romans 4:20-25

“ . . Who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for Himself a people of His own who are zealous of good deeds.” Titus 2:14


“The son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give His life for many.” Matt. 20:28

“ . . .This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Matt. 26:28

“. . Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many . . .” Hebrews 9:28

“For it was the entirely free plan and very gracious will and intention of God the Father that the enlivening and saving effectiveness of His Son’s costly death should work itself out in all His chosen ones, in order that He might grant justifying faith to them only and thereby lead them without fail to salvation. In other words, it was God’s will that Christ through the blood of the cross (by which He confirmed the New Covenant) should effectively redeem from every people, tribe, nation, and language all those and only those who were chosen from eternity to salvation and given to Him by the Father; that He should grant them faith (which, like the Holy Spirit’s other saving gifts, He acquired for them by His death); that He should cleanse them by His blood from all their sins, both original and actual, whether committed before or after their coming to faith; that He should faithfully preserve them to the very end; and that He should finally present them to Himself, a glorious people, without spot or wrinkle.”*

*The Canons of Dort, The Second Main Point of Doctrine, Article #8.

[themuzicman]

All of these verses are read with the filter of a limited and eternal elect.

If we remove that filter and read this post again, we find that all of Reader's conclusions regarding limite atonement simply do not hold.



What's clear, once we remove the Calvinists colored glasses, is that atonement is universal, but only comes, as we see in Hebrews 9:8-15 (those who are called might receive the promise), Hebrews 9:28 (To those who eagerly wait for Him), Galatians 3:22-29 (that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe), Hebrews 2:13-16 (’Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.’ Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same), to those who believe. This is not a fixed list, but consists of all those who become the elect of God by fulfilling the condition of universal atonement.


Perhaps the most simple reply is to cite from Romans 5 and 1 John 2:

Romans 5

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men

1 John 2

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world.

The only way to reconcile the scriptures that Reader has posted and these two very important scriptures is to embrace unlimited atonement and faith as the condition of salvation.

Thus, we see clearly that Limited Atonement without the Calvinist filter placed over scripture, is not scriptural.

Michael

[seer]

All of these verses are read with the filter of a limited and eternal elect.

If we remove that filter and read this post again, we find that all of Reader's conclusions regarding limite atonement simply do not hold.



What's clear, once we remove the Calvinists colored glasses, is that atonement is universal, but only comes, as we see in Hebrews 9:8-15 (those who are called might receive the promise), Hebrews 9:28 (To those who eagerly wait for Him), Galatians 3:22-29 (that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe), Hebrews 2:13-16 (’Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.’ Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same), to those who believe. This is not a fixed list, but consists of all those who become the elect of God by fulfilling the condition of universal atonement.


Perhaps the most simple reply is to cite from Romans 5 and 1 John 2:

Romans 5

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men

1 John 2

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world.

The only way to reconcile the scriptures that Reader has posted and these two very important scriptures is to embrace unlimited atonement and faith as the condition of salvation.

Thus, we see clearly that Limited Atonement without the Calvinist filter placed over scripture, is not scriptural.

Michael

Funny, I didn't see one text that Christ died ONLY for the elect. What we did see was a lot of humanistic reasoning.

"This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time."

I think it's better to stick with scripture...

[RanRan]

Perhaps the most simple reply is to cite from Romans 5 and 1 John 2:

Romans 5

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men

1 John 2

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world.

The only way to reconcile the scriptures that Reader has posted and these two very important scriptures is to embrace unlimited atonement and faith as the condition of salvation.

Thus, we see clearly that Limited Atonement without the Calvinist filter placed over scripture, is not scriptural.

Michael

I agree, it's the same determinist filter of the Hebrews, "We have Abraham" or "We are elected" amounts to the same stance in a faith that makes redemption superfluous or little more than an 'add-on.' So it is clear that those who hold to a 'limited-atonement' are actually gambling their souls on belief in something else to save them, since a limited redemption offers no assurance that they are, in fact, redeemed. A misplaced faith by any other name...

[Duder]

Enemies of Christ hate this truth because unlimited atonement seems nicer and an easier message to preach.

Why, those liberal Christian girlie-men!



Hello, Reader -

You had me going there for a minute. I thought maybe you were calling me an enemy of Christ.

But if you say that enemies of Christ like to preach unlimited atonement, it is not logically eqivalent to saying that those who preach unlimited atonement are enemies of Christ. So it turns out that you were not necessarily accusing every universalist of being an enemy of Christ.

That is good, because as a universalist, I could be tempted to say that those who want to diminish the power and effectiveness of Jesus' sacrifice are "enemies of Christ". But I would say too much if I did that. I should flip it around the way you did, and say that enemies of Christ like to limit the power and effectiveness of Jesus' sacrifice. That way, I allow that there are some people who limit the power of the sacrifice, but who are not necessarily enemies of Christ.

And so doing, universalists and non-universalists, as general classes, avoid calling each other enemies of Christ. Once again, another horrible schism in Christianity is averted!

[Reader]

That is good, because as a universalist, I could be tempted to say that those who want to diminish the power and effectiveness of Jesus' sacrifice are "enemies of Christ". But I would say too much if I did that. I should flip it around the way you did, and say that enemies of Christ like to limit the power and effectiveness of Jesus' sacrifice. That way, I allow that there are some people who limit the power of the sacrifice, but who are not necessarily enemies of Christ.

Just to be sure you are not accusing me of diminishing the power of Christ's sacrifice by teaching it as "Limited", please note I took special care to specify otherwise. I quote myself:

"“Limited” by no means insufficient to save any more than were saved. The power of Christ’s blood was sufficient to save the entire human race, but it was not the will of God to save all men universally. The limitation rested not in any incapacity of Jesus Christ, but in God’s plan and purposes, according to election."

I then went on to point out, from the Word, God's basis for limiting the cross work of His Son.

Only the elect and faithful seed of Abraham were redeemed to everlasting life as result of Covenant promised to Abraham, through Isaac, through Jacob and their faithful descendents. Redemption and everlasting life was never promised to Ishmael and his descendents.

Only the (spiritual) "sons of promise" are heirs of eternal Covenant. Not the (ethnic) sons of the bondwoman. See Galatians 4:22-31 that teaches and rules out the possibility of universal salvation for all men.

[Reader]

Funny, I didn't see one text that Christ died ONLY for the elect.

You seem to miss a lot, Seer.

Jesus Christ ~is~ the Elect of God, and He is the ~only~ one who died on the cross.

How could the Elect of God, die for those He does not know, who are separated from Him; outside of Him; and therefore not a part of His Person?

[themuzicman]

You seem to miss a lot, Seer.

Jesus Christ ~is~ the Elect of God, and He is the ~only~ one who died on the cross.

How could the Elect of God, die for those He does not know, who are separated from Him; outside of Him; and therefore not a part of His Person?

So, when Paul calls the Ephesians or the Thesselonians the elect, he's lying to them?

[Reader]

So, when Paul calls the Ephesians or the Thesselonians the elect, he's lying to them?

Paul calls them elect, IN Christ.

Sinners are elected by the Father by being chosen and positioned in the Elect Son, His Beloved, even before creation.

So that when the Elect of God incarnates and goes to the cross, He harbors all the elect given to Him by the Father, in His Elect Person. He came into the world as their federal head and representative and was lifted up on their behalf to suffer in their stead.

The Elect of God did not die for any non-elect, reprobates of this world. That is what reprobation consists of . . .no atonement, no reconciliation with God, no grace received from God, no forgiveness of sins.

[Duder]

Just to be sure you are not accusing me of diminishing the power of Christ's sacrifice by teaching it as "Limited", please note I took special care to specify otherwise. I quote myself:

"“Limited” by no means insufficient to save any more than were saved. The power of Christ’s blood was sufficient to save the entire human race, but it was not the will of God to save all men universally. The limitation rested not in any incapacity of Jesus Christ, but in God’s plan and purposes, according to election."

I then went on to point out, from the Word, God's basis for limiting the cross work of His Son.

Only the elect and faithful seed of Abraham were redeemed to everlasting life as result of Covenant promised to Abraham, through Isaac, through Jacob and their faithful descendents. Redemption and everlasting life was never promised to Ishmael and his descendents.

Only the (spiritual) "sons of promise" are heirs of eternal Covenant. Not the (ethnic) sons of the bondwoman. See Galatians 4:22-31 that teaches and rules out the possibility of universal salvation for all men.

Hi, Reader -

Looks like we superheroes have more work to do in averting theological disaster. Forth, champions!

Good thing you checked to verify that I'm not accusing you of diminishing Jesus' sacrifice when you call the atonement limited. You are right - it is not an accusation, as if I want to charge you with some kind of blame. I merely notice that you diminish the sacrifice when you call it limited.

The power of Christ’s blood was sufficient to save the entire human race, but it was not the will of God to save all men universally.

One wonders, then, why God the father suffered so much grief, and why Jesus suffered so much pain in providing so great a sacrifice that it could save all men, if it were not the will of God to save all men. Why go to the trouble?

We can't say that it was just God's strategy to sacrifice so much in order to show himself as being all-loving and all-gracious. For if he did not really mean to put the universally-effective sacrifice to it's full use, it would be just a trick for appearances - a way of saying, "Hey, look, I tried", when he didn't really try. I think we would doubt that a being who pulls a stunt like that is really God. So forget that.

And if there is no rational reason that God suffered more grief and pain than was necessary, that would be the very definition of masochism. I think we will agree that God is not a masochist, so we can disregard this possibility.

[RanRan]

So that when the Elect of God incarnates and goes to the cross, He harbors all the elect given to Him by the Father, in His Elect Person. He came into the world as their federal head and representative ...

Representing whom? The Gospel makes it clear that as all men fell with Adam, all men are raised with Christ. When you are talking about federal heads, inserting a 'limited-federal headship for some is like saying only some fell with Adam. That thinking makes a complete mess out of what scripture is communicating (revealing) to us about the headships of Adam and Christ!

[Reader]

Representing whom? The Gospel makes it clear that as all men fell with Adam, all men are raised with Christ.

Can you point me to the Scripture or passage that teaches "all men are raised with Christ?"

[Reader]

Hi, Reader -

Looks like we superheroes have more work to do in averting theological disaster. Forth, champions!

Good thing you checked to verify that I'm not accusing you of diminishing Jesus' sacrifice when you call the atonement limited. You are right - it is not an accusation, as if I want to charge you with some kind of blame. I merely notice that you diminish the sacrifice when you call it limited.

You persist then, in misrepresenting what I very carefully stated to avoid such accusation. There is no way the sacrifice of Jesus Christ can be diminished, by truthfully teaching for whom the sacrifice was offered. The reason the sacrifice of Christ can not be diminished for any reason, is His sacrifice was eternal and divine in nature; perfect and exhaustive spiritually, convenantally, legally, and prophetically.

Just because it was not universally applied quantitatively, does not affect its quality.

One wonders, then, why God the father suffered so much grief, and why Jesus suffered so much pain in providing so great a sacrifice that it could save all men, if it were not the will of God to save all men. Why go to the trouble?

I truly believe that if the Father had given Jesus only one man to represent and save, Jesus willingly would have suffered to the same extent He did. Numbers have nothing to do with the grace of God; divine purpose and promises do.

For if he did not really mean to put the universally-effective sacrifice to it's full use,

Whoa . . .you are inserting an invention of your mind with the intent to make it look like biblical truth. There is no such thing as "universally-effective" sacrifice. Universally sufficient, yes. Effective, no. Don't play word games, Dude.

And if there is no rational reason that God suffered more grief and pain than was necessary,

Another strawman. Nowhere does the Bible teach that God suffered more grief and pain than was necessary.

that would be the very definition of masochism. I think we will agree that God is not a masochist, so we can disregard this possibility.

Yeah, follow your own good advice. Disregard this possibility.

[Duder]

Can you point me to the Scripture or passage that teaches "all men are raised with Christ?"

St. Paul was fond of alluding to a symetrical relationship between the fall and the redemption. You can be dead in Adam, or else you can be alive in Christ. Just as the sin of one man condemns humanity, the sacrifice of another man redeems it.

With this symmetry in mind, try a multiple choice question.

Complete the following sentence:

All men fell with Adam, but _____________ with Christ.

a. no men are raised

b. Some men are raised

c. all men are raised

d. all men do the Macarena

[Reader]

St. Paul was fond of alluding to a symetrical relationship between the fall and the redemption. You can be dead in Adam, or else you can be alive in Christ. Just as the sin of one man condemns humanity, the sacrifice of another man redeems it.

With this symmetry in mind, try a multiple choice question.

Complete the following sentence:

All men fell with Adam, but _____________ with Christ.

a. no men are raised

b. Some men are raised

c. all men are raised

d. all men do the Macarena

First, nowhere does the Bible teach about men being raised "with" Christ.

I think you must have Romans Chapter 5 lurking somewhere in the back of your mind, so you might want to review the exact language of Paul's teaching in that passage, in order to make your questionaire more accurate.