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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Where did you get the idea that I don't believe in the existence of Hell? The Biblical record shows that Hell exists, but does not give definitive details about Hell. It is probable, based on the little information that is available, that punishment will be commensurate with offences committed. But exclusion from Heaven would almost certainly involve no protection at law from others who have been excluded. Maybe the idea that Hell is a prison is just wishful thinking on my part - the alternative would indeed be an interminable nightmare. And as OBP stated, the gates of Hell are locked from the inside - regardless of which scenario is ultimately shown to be in play.
    So you do believe that I will suffer some form of discomfort/punishment for my thought crime of rejecting Jesus as my Lord and Master? If true, by the common definition of the term, you are a religious fundamentalist. And I would bet that Nick and others here also qualify as religious fundamentalists.

    Here is a good definition of fundamentalism:

    1. They (fundamentalists) are counter-modernist.

    It (fundamentalism) manifests itself as an attempt by “besieged believers” to find their refuge in arming themselves with an identity that is rooted in a past golden age. And this identity is acted out in an attempt to restore that “golden past”.

    2. They (fundamentalists) are “generally assertive, clamorous, and often violent”.

    3. They are “the Chosen”, “the Elect”, “the Saved”.

    4. Public marks of distinction are needed to maintain their sense of superiority and distinctive identity.

    Not only for the purpose of maintaining that distinctive identity, but also as “part of the narcissistic struggle to be considered unique and special.” (p.30) Skullcaps, turbans, hijab, crosses, skin markings, circumcision, initiations, baptisms, rituals, food taboos, holy times, etc etc. The point is to “be separate” so where there are similar groups the slight differences are exaggerated — the heretic being more of a threat than the infidel!

    5. There is only one true religion and one correct way of life; and these must be defended against inroads from other religions and secularism.

    Religious pluralism is a problem for the fundamentalist. The fundamentalist, whether Christian, Judaistic or Islamic, will accept all but only into one exclusive “truth”. Narcissism feeds on differences, and these differences are accentuated, intensified. Since there is only one true way, it is under constant threat. The world is thus a place of persecution. A place where there is a black and white, a Manichaean struggle between absolutes, good and evil, truth and error, God and Satan. There is no middle ground. “You are with us or against us.”

    6. There is an inerrant holy book, prophet or charismatic leader to whom literal obedience is mandatory.

    7. Law and authority come from God.

    Even civic law must derive from the holy books. “God’s law always trumps human law.”

    8. Female sexuality must be controlled and clear impassable boundaries must be established between men and women.

    Sexuality is controlled within the structure of the patriarchal family. Women are subordinated in marriage, reproduction, abortion, ordination, access to or emphasis on education. Female sexuality is associated strongly with “animalism” and pollution — giving rise to taboos on certain sexual practices. (p.32) “The control of female sexuality is sometimes linked with the fear of emasculation and homosexuality.” The fear of men being led to become like women is expressed in Islamic and Christian writings.

    9. Sexual behaviour is a major concern of all fundamentalists — Christian, Jewish, Islamic — without exception. Especially the fear of and opposition to homosexuality.

    10. Fundamentalism and nationalism converge.

    The moral life according to the will of God can only be fully lived in a society of fellow-practitioners of the belief. This can only be achieved through God’s rule — through the national executive and legislature itself. Hence the importance of bringing about a government that will prioritize the right morals and right culture for the nation — relegating other (economic) functions to a secondary place.


    Copied and redacted from: http://vridar.org/2007/06/29/10-char...undamentalism/
    Last edited by Gary; 08-27-2015, 01:00 PM.

    Comment


    • Notice that no one has answered my question as to why a perfect god needed to create something after billions and billions of years of perfect existence. I believe that this one question brings down the entire conservative Christian belief system. Here's why:

      Why would a perfect, all-knowing God, in need of nothing, one day decide to create a universe and little beings in "his image"? Options:

      1. God did it for his own benefit, but why?

      Was he bored? Was he lonely? Did he have nothing better to do that day so decided he wanted the equivalent of a miniature train and train track to keep him entertained??

      2. He did it for our benefit.

      Are you kidding?? He knew that Adam and Eve would choose to sin thereby forcing all humankind to undergo MASSIVE suffering for thousands and thousands of years...but he created them anyway. He also knew that only the few would follow the "narrow road" and obey him, the majority being cast into everlasting darkness in a place prepared for the devil and his angels.

      There is no logical way to claim that God created mankind for our benefit. Humankind would have been much better off to have been created as robots or not created at all.

      3. "God works in mysterious ways. We simply have to trust him."

      This is fundamentalist nonsense. What this statement says is this: Stop using your brain and simply obey by blind obedience.

      The lack of a good explanation for a perfect God creating a universe and little minnie-hims is basis enough to reject this ancient tall tale.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
        Notice that no one has answered my question as to why a perfect god needed to create something after billions and billions of years of perfect existence.
        Your question doesn't make sense. There is no such thing as 'time' before the creation.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Your question doesn't make sense. There is no such thing as 'time' before the creation.
          Ok, let's keep it simple: your god allegedly existed prior to his act of creating the universe. Why would your perfect god need to create anything, including "time", if he was perfect and self-sufficient?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gary View Post
            Ok, let's keep it simple: your god allegedly existed prior to his act of creating the universe. Why would your perfect god need to create anything, including "time", if he was perfect and self-sufficient?
            He wanted to?
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              He wanted to?
              Ok, good. So the Christian god wanted to create.

              But why? Was he bored? Was he lonely?

              If your answer is, "He just wanted to", then I must ask: How can you consider your god to be just, good, and merciful if he created a universe that he knew in advance would endure horrific misery and suffering for thousands of years...but he created it anyway.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                Ok, good. So the Christian god wanted to create.

                But why? Was he bored? Was he lonely?

                If your answer is, "He just wanted to", then I must ask: How can you consider your god to be just, good, and merciful if he created a universe that he knew in advance would endure horrific misery and suffering for thousands of years...but he created it anyway.
                It has a happy ending? Why does a writer write a book? Not just for money, someone could write a story just because they want to create a story. And a good story needs conflict. Suffering builds character.
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  It has a happy ending? Why does a writer write a book? Not just for money, someone could write a story just because they want to create a story. And a good story needs conflict. Suffering builds character.
                  Suffering builds character??

                  Tell that to the millions of little children who have been tortured, raped, and brutally murdered during the thousands of years of human existence. Try again.

                  And what happy ending? Unless you are a universalist, the majority of human beings will be in Hell. Only a "few" are on the narrow road to Heaven, at least according to your Holy Book.

                  The truth is that if your god exists, he is a brutal monster. A brutal, sadistic monster who everyday, for the last tens of thousands of years, has sat contently on his throne on the edge of outer space, watching little children being brutalized by the most unimaginable horrors...but he allows it to continue, day after day, year after year, millennia after millennia.

                  If your god exists, call him Lord and Master, but be honest and stop calling him "good", "loving", "just", and "merciful". I will call him what he is: a monster.

                  Come on Nick and Stein: Cat got your tongue?
                  Last edited by Gary; 08-27-2015, 02:34 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                    Suffering builds character??

                    Tell that to the millions of little children who have been tortured, raped, and brutally murdered during the existence of human beings. Try again.

                    And what happy ending? Unless you are a universalist, the majority of human beings will be in Hell. Only a "few" are on the narrow path to Heaven, at least according to your Holy Book.
                    Actually, the historically high infant mortality rate means that most humans ever conceived will be in heaven due to dying young and incapable of shame. Christianthinktank.com has several good articles discussing your concerns. But since you won't read them, I won't bother linking to them. It's a waste of time. Anyone who wishes to find the articles need only to seek them out on that website.
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                      Ok, good. So the Christian god wanted to create.

                      But why? Was he bored? Was he lonely?

                      If your answer is, "He just wanted to", then I must ask: How can you consider your god to be just, good, and merciful if he created a universe that he knew in advance would endure horrific misery and suffering for thousands of years...but he created it anyway.
                      My answer is, "I don't know. That's above my pay grade."

                      You have one of the worst outlooks on life I've ever seen.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                        Suffering builds character??

                        Tell that to the millions of little children who have been tortured, raped, and brutally murdered during the thousands of years of human existence. Try again.

                        And what happy ending? Unless you are a universalist, the majority of human beings will be in Hell. Only a "few" are on the narrow road to Heaven, at least according to your Holy Book.

                        The truth is that if your god exists, he is a brutal monster. A brutal, sadistic monster who everyday, for the last tens of thousands of years, has sat contently on his throne on the edge of outer space, watching little children being brutalized by the most unimaginable horrors...but he allows it to continue, day after day, year after year, millennia after millennia.

                        If your god exists, call him Lord and Master, but be honest and stop calling him "good", "loving", "just", and "merciful". I will call him what he is: a monster.

                        Come on Nick and Stein: Cat got your tongue?
                        You are so ignorant that it is actually funny watching you stumble.

                        Universalism isn't the only view that thinks a majority of people will not be in Hell

                        Please educate yourself on annihilationism and inclusivism.

                        You really don't know as much as you think you know.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cornell View Post
                          You are so ignorant that it is actually funny watching you stumble.

                          Universalism isn't the only view that thinks a majority of people will be in Hell

                          Please educate yourself on annihilationism and inclusivism.
                          I think you mean won't be in hell.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • Thanks pig

                            Comment


                            • Suffering does build character and it makes moral progression possible.

                              We live in a world where humanity needs to avoid cases where people are tortured and to get to this point we have to WORK for it.

                              Atheists like Gary want to take the lazy way out and expect a God that just gives us everything from the start even though we didn't earn it.
                              Last edited by Cornell; 08-27-2015, 03:11 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                                Actually, the historically high infant mortality rate means that most humans ever conceived will be in heaven due to dying young and incapable of shame. Christianthinktank.com has several good articles discussing your concerns. But since you won't read them, I won't bother linking to them. It's a waste of time. Anyone who wishes to find the articles need only to seek them out on that website.

                                That still means that the majority of children who have reached the mythical Age of Accountability will be in Hell. You have a seared conscience if you refuse to condemn your god's sick behavior. Imagine how you would feel about a man who stood by and watched while a nine year old child is brutally tortured, raped, and murdered...and doesn't lift a finger. We would shame this man to no end and if we could, put him in jail for being an accomplice to this horrific crime. Your god is an accomplice to hundreds if not thousands of horrific crimes against children every day.

                                Comment

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