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Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

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  • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    If the guy's never been to a meeting of the SBL, he has no room to talk.

    Just as recently as 2012, John Dominic Crossan was the president of the SBL. You know that guy? He's one of the main members of the Jesus Seminar.

    So a large organization of evangelical Christians (supposedly) elected John Dominic Crossan as their president?
    Crossan led the Historical Jesus sub-section for several years before becoming the president of the SBL.

    He must be a secret evangelical!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by psstein View Post
      Crossan led the Historical Jesus sub-section for several years before becoming the president of the SBL.

      He must be a secret evangelical!
      Well if the Pope can be the head of the masons, then why not?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
        I actually think Richard Carrier is a great gift of God to the church.
        He really is. In the scholarly world, he's a nobody. I've read some of his (few) published articles, and they're so bad they're not even wrong.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by psstein View Post
          He really is. In the scholarly world, he's a nobody. I've read some of his (few) published articles, and they're so bad they're not even wrong.
          And internet atheists treat his words like Scripture.

          Making mythicism mainstream is just helping make atheists more ignorant.

          Comment


          • My statement was that the majority of New Testament scholars are Christian, a large percentage of these Christian NT scholars are evangelical.

            Please give me an actual source that refutes this claim, not anecdotal statements about the guy who teaches religious studies at Podunk State University.

            Nick, Stein and others have repeatedly insinuated that I am uneducated (an idiot) on the subject of NT scholarship and therefore I have no right to criticize NT scholarship. Here's the problem with that allegation:

            1. Please present even ONE position held by the overwhelming majority (greater than 90%) of ancient near east scholars (including NT scholars) about which I have disagreed. I don't think you can.

            The empty tomb? Sorry, but 30% of New Testament scholars, by Gary Habermas' own data, deny/doubt that there is good evidence for the historicity of an empty tomb. How many other events recorded as facts in our public university history books do 30% of scholars doubt as historical? Do 30% of scholars doubt that Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon? Do 30% of scholars doubt that Alexander the Great sacked the city of Tyre? Do 30% of scholars doubt that Nebuchadnezzar sacked Jerusalem?

            Yet 30% of scholars, by Christianity's own "expert", discount the historicity of the empty tomb! And what about Stein's accusation that I have denied the consensus opinion regarding Aramethea burying Jesus in his own tomb? Well, I'm still waiting for a source that states that the overwhelming majority (greater than 90%) of scholars believe that a guy named Joseph of Aramathea buried Jesus in his tomb. The fact that 70% of NT scholars may believe this is just as convincing to historians as 70% believing in the historicity of the empty tomb. If THIRTY PERCENT of scholars doubt its historicity, then I guarantee you that you won't find Aramethea's burial story in any college world history text book!

            2. There are no experts/scholars who specialize in the reanimation of first century dead guys, otherwise referred to as a resurrection.

            None. So to say that I have unintelligently disputed the evidence and scholarship of Christian scholars regarding a first century reanimation is ridiculous and foolish. Christians have ZERO evidence for a resurrection. Christians have ZERO scholars who have expertise in resurrections. Christians only have the post-death appearance claims of superstitious, first century, grieving peasants and one vision-prone rabbi. That's it. Christians have ZERO evidence for the event in question. The Christian claim that they have evidence for a resurrection, is like someone claiming to be a witness to a car accident but having only heard about the car accident from unverifiable sources, and, having heard from unverifiable sources that the dead driver was seen walking the streets of the city several days later! That is NOT eyewitness testimony. Nor is it even CREDIBLE testimony. It is hearsay!

            Preposterous superstitious nonsense.
            Last edited by Gary; 08-31-2015, 03:20 PM.

            Comment


            • Silence...

              Comment


              • Look at Habermas' article in the Journal for the Historical Jesus. He does periodic literature reviews to figure it out.

                I know of two scholars (with published work) who deny it: Crossan and Ehrman. Also, keep in mind that we have lives outside the internet.

                As for non-Christian NT scholars, I don't know of any survey directly taken of NT scholars. I know of surveys taken of published literature, but not of NT scholars' beliefs.

                Finally, to refute the claim all of the non-Christians know each other, Bart Ehrman (on his blog, no less) directly stated he only met Maurice Casey once.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by psstein View Post
                  Look at Habermas' article in the Journal for the Historical Jesus. He does periodic literature reviews to figure it out.

                  I know of two scholars (with published work) who deny it: Crossan and Ehrman. Also, keep in mind that we have lives outside the internet.

                  As for non-Christian NT scholars, I don't know of any survey directly taken of NT scholars. I know of surveys taken of published literature, but not of NT scholars' beliefs.

                  Finally, to refute the claim all of the non-Christians know each other, Bart Ehrman (on his blog, no less) directly stated he only met Maurice Casey once.
                  You did not address any of the main points in my last statement.

                  How can you accuse me of going against the overwhelming scholarly position on the empty tomb, and, the Joseph of Aramathea story if you have no source to back up your claim other than your off the cuff knowledge that only Erhman and Crossan have mentioned it? Please give me a source that states that the overwhelming scholarly consensus supports the empty tomb as a historical fact. Simply telling me that "a majority" of scholars support its historicity is not of any benefit to your argument. Imagine if only 51 percent of scholars believed that Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon was an historical event. Do you really believe that any scholar would make the claim that based on the consensus of 51% of historians/ancient scholars this event is a "fact" that should be listed in world history books as a fact??

                  I did not make the claim that all non-theist scholars know each other, that was Berlinerblau, or at least someone quoting him.
                  Last edited by Gary; 08-31-2015, 04:45 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Refer to Raymond Brown's Death of the Messiah for a bibliography.

                    Comment


                    • I repeat: Would someone please show me just ONE position that I have taken on this thread that the overwhelming majority (greater than 90%) of NT scholars would refute as false?

                      1. My doubt as to the historicity of the empty tomb.
                      2. My doubt as to the historicity of the Joseph of Aramathea story.
                      3. My doubt that Nick's "Honor-Shame" argument is valid for ALL first century inhabitants of Palestine. My doubt that exceptions to this generalization are impossible, or at a minimum, "implausible", as Nick seems to suggest.
                      4. My doubt that Paul ever claimed to have seen a resurrected body with his own two eyes. (Not whether or not he believed Jesus had been bodily resurrected but that he had seen Jesus' resurrected body himself.)
                      5. My doubt that eyewitnesses wrote any of the four gospels.

                      Please, prove to me that an overwhelming consensus of NT scholars (greater than 90%) holds that my position on any these issues is incorrect and uninformed.
                      Last edited by Gary; 08-31-2015, 06:35 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                        Silence...
                        What, we should drop everything to immediately reply to one of your elephant hurls?
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          What, we should drop everything to immediately reply to one of your elephant hurls?
                          No. Take your time, Pig. But notice once I asked for actual evidence that my positions are as wacky and uninformed as many of you have made them out to be, the condescending comments and snide jokes suddenly came to a screeching halt.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by psstein View Post
                            Refer to Raymond Brown's Death of the Messiah for a bibliography.
                            Of Berlinerblau??

                            Who cares. Why don't you address my central statement.

                            CHRISTIANS
                            HAVE
                            ZERO
                            EVIDENCE
                            FOR
                            A
                            FIRST
                            CENTURY
                            REANIMATION/RESURRECTION.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                              Of Berlinerblau??

                              Who cares. Why don't you address my central statement.

                              CHRISTIANS
                              HAVE
                              ZERO
                              EVIDENCE
                              FOR
                              A
                              FIRST
                              CENTURY
                              REANIMATION/RESURRECTION.
                              Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am NOT saying that Christians have zero evidence for the following:

                              1. Claims of post-death appearances by the recently deceased in question to his grieving friends and family members.
                              2. Claims of an empty tomb.
                              3. Claims of a change in character of the followers of this religious sect.
                              4. Claims of the development and growth of this new religious sect, a sect with many "shameful" beliefs and practices.
                              5. The claim of one outsider to receiving a post-death appearance by this deceased person, but specifically stated as occurring in a "vision".

                              For anyone to say that Christians have zero evidence for these above claims is ludicrous. There is evidence. But my position is that the evidence is very weak, mostly consisting of hearsay, and, generalizations about the beliefs and behavior of peoples living 20 centuries ago. However, for the event itself, a reanimation/resurrection, Christians have ZERO eyewitness testimony, not even hearsay testimony of this supernatural event. NO ONE, even in the Christian Bible, claims to have witnessed the reanimation/resurrection of the body. NO ONE, even in the Christian Bible, claims to have seen the dead body walk out of his grave on his own two feet.

                              Christians have zero evidence for the central claim of their supernatural-based belief system: A resurrection/reanimation.

                              This claim can only be believed by faith. There is no evidence.
                              Last edited by Gary; 08-31-2015, 10:20 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Wait. So Gary thinks that Jesus should have resurrected Himself in front of witnesses? Why is that necessary? The disciples knew that Jesus was dead and were not expecting Jesus to come back to life. They then see Jesus alive after finding out that the tomb is empty. What about the travelers on the road to Emmaus who encountered Jesus without recognizing Him first? Gary is goofy!
                                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                                Comment

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