Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[tabibito]

Yes, Slick Willy: "Is" doesn't really mean "is".

When a person kicks the bucket, there is often no bucket and no kicking involved.

So if I indulge in sin, I lose my salvation, even if I haven't specifically rejected Jesus as my Lord, and, I still confess (publically declare) him as my Lord?

A person who indulges in sin has rejected Christ as his Lord - whether temporarily or permanently is a matter of whether he repents.

[Gary]

When a person kicks the bucket, there is often no bucket and no kicking involved.



A person who indulges in sin has rejected Christ as his Lord - whether temporarily or permanently is a matter of whether he repents.

So if a true Christian stubs his toe and says "G_d d_mn!", and then keels over dead prior to repenting, will he go to Hell?

[tabibito]

Given that "god" is not a name, but a title - given that the Old Testament laws have been fulfilled, and observance of them is therefore no longer a requirement - perhaps you can explain where sin would be involved in saying "God damn".

[Gary]

"Bronze Age Goat Herders," "Bloodthirsty Tyrant," poor understanding of what Christian denominations actually believe. Yeah, we've ourselves a real live fundy atheist here.

What of Christians who reject Reformed Epistemology, like most Catholics and Orthodox Christians?

It's really simple. Gary doesn't know what he's talking about. He somehow thinks that rhetorical appeals to Hell and "evil YHWH" are actual arguments against Christianity. Somebody call me when someone with a brain is arguing against Christianity.

Here is proof that Hell is so terrible that people "gnash" their teeth! This good Christian had a vision from Jesus, just like the Apostle Paul, so we know it has to be 100% true, but instead of just seeing a talking bright light on a dark desert highway, like Paul, this fellow says God allowed him to visit HELL itself. He says that there in Hell, there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth, in total darkness. That sounds a lot like torture to me, but then I'm not Alberto Gonzalez or George W. so don't listen to me, folks. Let's hear this man's story about his trip to a literal Hell:

[Gary]

Given that "god" is not a name, but a title - given that the Old Testament laws have been fulfilled, and observance of them is therefore no longer a requirement - perhaps you can explain where sin would be involved in saying "God damn".

So in your church if someone stubs his toe it is perfectly acceptable for him to holler out, "God damn!" and no one will bat an eye?? You got one wacky church there, Tabster. I'm an agnostic and I don't let my children say that phrase and here you are cursing like a drunken sailor in church! My Baptist grandma would roll over in her grave to see what has happened in the Church today: drinking alcohol, playing cards, and full of filthy potty-mouths like yourself, Tabby. Shame on you, you potty-mouthed Christian.

Potty mouth, photo.jpg

[tabibito]

So in your church if someone stubs his toe it is perfectly acceptable for him to holler out, "God damn!" and no one will bat an eye?? You got one wacky church there, Tabster. I'm an agnostic and I don't let my children say that phrase and here you are cursing like a drunken sailor in church! My Baptist grandma would roll over in her grave to see what has happened in the Church today: drinking alcohol, playing cards, and full of filthy potty-mouths like yourself, Tabby. Shame on you, you potty-mouthed Christian.

Do try to stay on topic - at least with regard to your own comments and questions, if with no other.

If you are asking whether a person who commits even a trivial sin and refuses to repent will be excluded from heaven - the answer is yes.
If you are asking whether a person who unknowingly commits even a heinous sin will be excluded from heaven - the answer is no.
If you are asking whether a person who commits any sin of any magnitude whatever and dies before being given opportunity to repent ... I'd take that as an indication that the person has been weighed in the balance and found wanting.

[Apologiaphoenix]

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Oh wow! Someone had a vision! Well geez. I think I'll just chuck all my years of reading theology and philosophy and metaphysics and go with the claim of some guy I've never heard of whose credentials I cannot verify.

And the 33,000 canard? Wow. Gary will believe anything if it argues against Christianity. He's just as gullible as a non-Christian as he was a Christian.

[Christianbookworm]

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Oh wow! Someone had a vision! Well geez. I think I'll just chuck all my years of reading theology and philosophy and metaphysics and go with the claim of some guy I've never heard of whose credentials I cannot verify.

And the 33,000 canard? Wow. Gary will believe anything if it argues against Christianity. He's just as gullible as a non-Christian as he was a Christian.

Are tab's comments that unrepentant sin in a Christian will keep you out of heaven accurate? I thought sin just caused loss of rewards. His statements seem too close to salvation-by-works...

[Apologiaphoenix]

Are tab's comments that unrepentant sin in a Christian will keep you out of heaven accurate? I thought sin just caused loss of rewards. His statements seem too close to salvation-by-works...

I suspect a typo on his part.

[Gary]

Do try to stay on topic - at least with regard to your own comments and questions, if with no other.

If you are asking whether a person who commits even a trivial sin and refuses to repent will be excluded from heaven - the answer is yes.
If you are asking whether a person who unknowingly commits even a heinous sin will be excluded from heaven - the answer is no.
If you are asking whether a person who commits any sin of any magnitude whatever and dies before being given opportunity to repent ... I'd take that as an indication that the person has been weighed in the balance and found wanting.

So what you are saying is that someone must be continually repenting because if one day you are in a really bad mood, you sin all day, and don't repent, and that night you die, you are going to spend eternity in hell.

[Christianbookworm]

So what you are saying is that someone must be continually repenting because if one day you are in a really bad mood, you sin all day, and don't repent, and that night you die, you are going to spend eternity in hell.

You might get a lower grade aka loss of rewards.

[JonathanL]

So what you are saying is that someone must be continually repenting because if one day you are in a really bad mood, you sin all day, and don't repent, and that night you die, you are going to spend eternity in hell.

I'm not tabibito, but I'm going to take a stab at this anyway.

I believe God's grace is bigger than to let a single slip-up send one to hell, but I do agree with the sentiment that a Christian should be continually repenting, IOW turning away from sin at every opportunity. In the instances that we fail to repent for whatever reason (except when it is due to blatant defiance or something equally serious) I believe God's grace is sufficient to cover these mistakes.

Of course, I do not believe that it is the repentance itself that makes everything right with God in and of itself, but rather the fact that a person (genuinely) repents is a sign that they still have, or has regained, a living faith.

[Gary]

I'm not tabibito, but I'm going to take a stab at this anyway.

I believe God's grace is bigger than to let a single slip-up send one to hell, but I do agree with the sentiment that a Christian should be continually repenting, IOW turning away from sin at every opportunity. In the instances that we fail to repent for whatever reason (except when it is due to blatant defiance or something equally serious) I believe God's grace is sufficient to cover these mistakes.

Of course, I do not believe that it is the repentance itself that makes everything right with God in and of itself, but rather the fact that a person (genuinely) repents is a sign that they still have, or has regained, a living faith.

Do you believe that good works are necessary for salvation or simply faith in Jesus and repentance?

[JonathanL]

Do you believe that good works are necessary for salvation or simply faith in Jesus and repentance?

I believe good works, or a good disposition to be more exact, are a sign of genuine faith and repentance. Whether not someone's good works are genuine expressions of their faith, or simply them trying to fool others and themselves is between them and God.

[tabibito]

Sorry AP - but on this I am satisfied that we are saved by grace, which works through faith to the benefit of those who love God. No love of God = no salvation (a plethora of good works notwithstanding). Disobedience = no love of God. Sin = Disobedience.

Ezekiel 33:12, 17-19

₁₂ “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’

₁₇ “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! ₁₈ “When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. ₁₉ “But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it.

No comfort can be taken in the fact that the cited text is drawn from the Old Testament; the New says the same.

A slightly more detailed, but by no means complete, exposition can be found here

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