Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[tabibito]

You are so blinded, Tabby, it is heart-breaking. You are looking at a square but calling it a circle just because you have been told by an authority figure that a square can be a circle. Sorry, Tabby, but you have been lied to. Squares can never be circles. Never.

I already told you that I have seen miracles for myself. It wouldn't matter one whit if the entire Bible and every part of every church's precepts were entirely fiction - the existence of God has been established as fact.

This man will writhe in horrific agony forever just because his ancient ancestors ate some of God's fruit

The precept of original sin is declared in the Old Testament to be an affront to God. It doesn't even play in this life, much less the next.

...if western orthodox Christianity is true.

IF

You can try to white wash the doctrine of Hell, but all one has to do is read the writings of the early church fathers and you will see that no one at that time believed that Hell was simply an eternity of feeling "ashamed".

No - it was a place of anguish. And the early Church Fathers failed to take into account allegorical terminology, and the simple fact that the suffering in Hell is commensurate with the degree of offences.

Either the earliest Christians got Jesus' message about the afterlife wrong or you are simply deceiving yourself in reading the Bible as you would LIKE it to read and not how the authors' intended it.

It would seem that you are unaware that suffering in Hell is commensurate with the offences committed. THAT is no matter for conjecture.

[tabibito]

A thought occurs - Just what authority do you think I have been subjected to?

[Gary]

I already told you that I have seen miracles for myself. It wouldn't matter one whit if the entire Bible and every part of every church's precepts were entirely fiction - the existence of God has been established as fact.


The precept of original sin is declared in the Old Testament to be an affront to God. It doesn't even play in this life, much less the next.

IF

No - it was a place of anguish. And the early Church Fathers failed to take into account allegorical terminology, and the simple fact that the suffering in Hell is commensurate with the degree of offences.

It would seem that you are unaware that suffering in Hell is commensurate with the offences committed. THAT is no matter for conjecture.

So if I understand your position correctly, early Christians were confused on Jesus central teaching of what happens to anyone who rejects his message of salvation (eternity in Hellfire), therefore, we today should ignore their statements on this central teaching, BUT, when the early Christians claim that someone told them, that someone told them, that someone told them that someone else had seen a dead Jesus walking around Jerusalem, Judea, and Galilee, eating broiled fish and levitating into the clouds, we should accept this hearsay testimony as "strong, 9 out of 10, evidence"???

Come on, Tabby!

[Gary]

A thought occurs - Just what authority do you think I have been subjected to?

1. A written document called the Bible.
2. Whoever taught you the teachings of Christianity, unless of course, you developed all your beliefs by self-study of a 2,000 year old document.

[tabibito]

So if I understand your position correctly, early Christians were confused on Jesus central teaching of what happens to anyone who rejects his message of salvation (eternity in Hellfire), therefore, we today should ignore their statements on this central teaching,

? What are you rabbiting on about now? Paul died in AD 65 or then abouts - most of the epistles attributed to him are not in dispute. And you're claiming that writings dating to fully a generation after Paul - two generations after the death of Christ (at least) are what? If you're going to draw up an argument about the Bible's veracity, teachings, and content, what people said about it two generations later is by no means relevant. If you want to argue that the gospels were written long after the founding apostles were dead, I'll ignore the argument: Luke at least was written before Paul died, and according to your sources, Luke was written after Mark.

BUT, when the early Christians claim that someone told them, that someone told them, that someone told them that someone else had seen a dead Jesus walking around Jerusalem, Judea, and Galilee, eating broiled fish and levitating into the clouds, we should accept this hearsay testimony as "strong, 9 out of 10, evidence"???

These witnesses were able to perform miracles - these witnesses are attested by God. Paul made it clear that the converts of at least one church had the evidence before them in that not only had he performed miracles among them, but that they themselves could perform miracles. And he made it clear that their experience was by no means unique.

[Gary]

The superstitious teachings of Christianity, Islam, and other theistic belief systems cause sane people to act in very insane ways, whether it is being a suicide bomber who expects to be greeted by 70 virgins in the afterlife after blowing himself to smithereens, or the homicidal behavior by the devout Christian lady of Arminian theology in this article written by a Calvinist:

A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in a bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.

The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that if Arminianism is right, her two infants will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.

Apparently, many Christians believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this the "age of accountability."

If I believed this nonsense I would take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and, before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn't matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?

Don't try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong ("thou shalt not kill"). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the eternal salvation of the babies. If Arminianism is right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of "saving souls." Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause. Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life revelling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.

http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Jones1.html

Ten years ago, Andrea Yates drowned her five young children to save them from going to Hell. She is now asking prison officials to let her have a weekly pass. What for? Answer: to attend church services! The very place that gave her the crazy idea that children who die young automatically go to heaven! It is insanity, folks. Religious superstitions are dangerous to society, especially for young children!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...al-church.html

andrea-yates-01-435.jpg

[tabibito]

Repeating the statement I made in a prior post: No sin being imputed where there is no understanding of sin being committed, this seems a logical conclusion. My immediate thought that it is the most likely concept ... I'll make a note to investigate.

And if what seems logical, if the immediate thought should be incorrect?

Already previously stated: it is guesswork. What if the people so killed should simply cease to exist? Do you think perhaps the drivel you just posted hasn't been encountered before?

[One Bad Pig]

Show me where I am wrong in depicting (western) orthodox/traditional (original sin believing) Christianity.

I dare you. I think you are blowing smoke, Pig.

That takes time I don't necessarily have - and I have every reason to believe you'll just wave it off anyway, like you did with tabibito's response.

[tabibito]

1. A written document called the Bible.
2. Whoever taught you the teachings of Christianity, unless of course, you developed all your beliefs by self-study of a 2,000 year old document.

Amazing. And the strange part is - the self study results in a 90% match with the teachings of the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Churches.

[tabibito]

That takes time I don't necessarily have - and I have every reason to believe you'll just wave it off anyway, like you did with tabibito's response.

He didn't even bother to read most of it.

[Gary]

That takes time I don't necessarily have - and I have every reason to believe you'll just wave it off anyway, like you did with tabibito's response.

Exactly. Smoke and mirrors. That is all you have in criticizing me. You may not like the stark reality of the description, but it is your belief system boiled down to the nuts and bolts.

[Gary]

Amazing. And the strange part is - the self study results in a 90% match with the teachings of the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Churches.

Neither the RCC nor the EOC believes in an Age of Accountability.
Both the RCC and the EOC believe that Baptism saves sinners.
Both the RCC and the EOC believe that good works assist, and are a necessary part, in one's salvation.

Your belief system is one of your own imagination/invention. And how many more Protestants have invented their own belief system? Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, most likely. This is why the 33,000 figure I quoted above is incorrect...the number should be much higher! In today's Protestant Christianity the Church is not the highest authority. And neither is the Bible the highest authority. The INDIVIDUAL believer who is the highest authority. This is why Slick Nick can berate me for not accepting the majority scholarly opinion regarding the empty tomb but feel fully justified in disagreeing with the majority of scholars on other issues. NICK is the highest authority...to Nick.

[Gary]

I already told you that I have seen miracles for myself. It wouldn't matter one whit if the entire Bible and every part of every church's precepts were entirely fiction - the existence of God has been established as fact.


The precept of original sin is declared in the Old Testament to be an affront to God. It doesn't even play in this life, much less the next.

IF

No - it was a place of anguish. And the early Church Fathers failed to take into account allegorical terminology, and the simple fact that the suffering in Hell is commensurate with the degree of offences.

It would seem that you are unaware that suffering in Hell is commensurate with the offences committed. THAT is no matter for conjecture.

http://jezebel.com/godless-parents-a...job-1682844001

[Christianbookworm]

Which video would you rather listen too? And I mean all the way through!

If Gary just ended up separated from God and living in some random hut, he'd probably be paranoid that he'll be tortured at any moment and his current surroundings are just meant to lull him into complacency and then the torture begins! And then he'd end up tormenting himself by thinking he will be tortured.

[Gary]

Which video would you rather listen too? And I mean all the way through!

If Gary just ended up separated from God and living in some random hut, he'd probably be paranoid that he'll be tortured at any moment and his current surroundings are just meant to lull him into complacency and then the torture begins! And then he'd end up tormenting himself by thinking he will be tortured.

Someone has lied to you, Tabby. Someone has told you a terrible lie. Someone has lied to you that the bright, warm light is your friend. That it is protecting you.

It is not your friend, Tabby. Don't go into the light, Tabby! The light is evil...