Derail from Planned Parenthood video thread

[Adrift]

I assume some Christian parents would be horrified their children are encouraged not to bully gay kids at school, since some Christians appear to think bullying gay people at every opportunity is a core Christian teaching (I wish I lived in a world where this sentence could be sarcastic).

No they don't. Where the heck are you getting this sort of stuff from? Maybe things are different in the NZ school system, but first of all, I can tell you that most kids in America do not talk about religion. Most people in America in general don't like bringing up religion (except in maybe the vaguest sense possible). The type of kids who bully don't typically come from devout Christian families. If their families are Christian at all it's purely in the nominal/cultural sense, and in that case the bullied are also "Christian". Outside of outlier cults like Westboro, far from bullying, devoutly religious students are typically extremely friendly, and/or, because of being perceived as goody-two-shoes, are bullied themselves. Most bullies aren't even targeting gay kids specifically, so much as they're simply looking for weakness in others no matter what. Being gay, looking different, or not being popular is just an excuse for a rotten kid to act rotten.

[RumTumTugger]

I don't really understand why trolls like this post on forums. She's not even pretending to be adding value with her comments.

folks we are fast losing irony meter factories here we may have to wait till next year for the new shipment.

[RumTumTugger]

I consider you a troll too. The way to not be a troll is to discuss the topic and not the people. Try adding to the discussion using thoughtful and logical and informed posts, rather than just insulting people.

make that sometime in 2017 for the next shipment.

it is interesting that those who do what they falsely acuse others of doing don't see their hypocrisy even when it is pointed out to them.

well what can we expect of the person who think is it ok to kill a 3 month old baby if it is not wanted.

[Christianbookworm]

folks we are fast losing irony meter factories here we may have to wait till next your for the new shipment.

Of course starlight doesn't see himself as a troll! He has no clue how offensive infanticide is to Christians. And that only God has the right to take a life(with some exception for self defense and capital punishment, it's okay for us to kill to keep the murderer from killing), because God can easily reverse death. And He's the creator, so He can permaban anyone.

[One Bad Pig]

I don't think you're going to be eating much popcorn on judgement day. How bout instead of looking forward to atheists and pro-choicers and abusers being dealt with on judgement day, we continue to speak the word with wisdom and boldness, and pray for those who are not currently in Christ to have a change of heart that awakens a desire to know Him. I know plenty of people, personally, who were atheists, who had abortions and who were pro-choice, who were abusers, and things far worse, who eventually came to Christ. As Christians, we don't delight in other people's suffering, and we don't delight in seeing people condemned to eternal death. To the contrary, we are to be lights in this world, and ambassadors for Christ, so that the love Christ showed us while we were still sinners is made manifest.

This. A thousand times, this. Instant POTD.

[JonathanL]

I don't think you're going to be eating much popcorn on judgement day. How bout instead of looking forward to atheists and pro-choicers and abusers being dealt with on judgement day, we continue to speak the word with wisdom and boldness, and pray for those who are not currently in Christ to have a change of heart that awakens a desire to know Him. I know plenty of people, personally, who were atheists, who had abortions and who were pro-choice, who were abusers, and things far worse, who eventually came to Christ. As Christians, we don't delight in other people's suffering, and we don't delight in seeing people condemned to eternal death. To the contrary, we are to be lights in this world, and ambassadors for Christ, so that the love Christ showed us while we were still sinners is made manifest.

I hadn't amened this yet? I must be losing my mind.

[Starlight]

No they don't.

You understand the difference between "some Christians think" and "all Christians think" right?
Apparently not. Just because you personally don't think something, it doesn't mean all Christians out there share your opinion or are as reasonable and nuanced as yourself on the issue.

[Adrift]

You understand the difference between "some Christians think" and "all Christians think" right?
Apparently not. Just because you personally don't think something, it doesn't mean all Christians out there share your opinion or are as reasonable and nuanced as yourself on the issue.

What the...?

Some atheists think the moon has little green men on it. I don't know of any off hand, but in this great big world of ours, there's gotta be at least one.

I mean, what kind of applejack argument is that?

Just...stop.

[Starlight]

What the...?

Some atheists think the moon has little green men on it. I don't know of any off hand, but in this great big world of ours, there's gotta be at least one.

I mean, what kind of applejack argument is that?

Just...stop.

Dude, I was a Christian for 20 years, and participated in half a dozen different interdenominational groups and online forums. I understand the range of Christian views. I'm not lumping all Christians in one basket. Different Christian views span the spectrum from thoughtful and loving through to just plain crazy nuts ridiculously absurdly zealous extremists. You're whole "no, no, you're totally wrong, no Christians are crazy extremists" claim is totally bizarre.

[Papa Zoom]

Dude, I was a Christian for 20 years, and participated in half a dozen different interdenominational groups and online forums. I understand the range of Christian views. I'm not lumping all Christians in one basket. Different Christian views span the spectrum from thoughtful and loving through to just plain crazy nuts ridiculously absurdly zealous extremists. You're whole "no, no, you're totally wrong, no Christians are crazy extremists" claim is totally bizarre.

What happened that you became an atheist? (if that question is permitted in this thread as it's quite off topic)

[Adrift]

Dude, I was a Christian for 20 years, and participated in half a dozen different interdenominational groups and online forums. I understand the range of Christian views. I'm not lumping all Christians in one basket. Different Christian views span the spectrum from thoughtful and loving through to just plain crazy nuts ridiculously absurdly zealous extremists. You're whole "no, no, you're totally wrong, no Christians are crazy extremists" claim is totally bizarre.

If even half of your posts are anything to go by, you had no clue what Christianity was when you were a "Christian". Your great testimony is that you had no idea what Christians actually believed about...well...anything (but especially homosexuality), and when you found out what they actually believed you dropped the faith like a bad habit. Color me unimpressed by your vast participation in interdenominational groups and online forums (), some of whom apparently "think bullying gay people at every opportunity is a core Christian teaching". Believe me when I say that the only one who is making totally bizarre claims here is you.

[whag]

If even half of your posts are anything to go by, you had no clue what Christianity was when you were a "Christian". Your great testimony is that you had no idea what Christians actually believed about...well...anything (but especially homosexuality), and when you found out what they actually believed you dropped the faith like a bad habit. Color me unimpressed by your vast participation in interdenominational groups and online forums (), some of whom apparently "think bullying gay people at every opportunity is a core Christian teaching". Believe me when I say that the only one who is making totally bizarre claims here is you.

You might be missing the fact that's not entirely his fault but the fundamentalist Christians who inculcated and enculturated him. Maybe you should try another approach and accept responsibility for the faction that created him.

[KingsGambit]

You might be missing the fact that's not entirely his fault but the fundamentalist Christians who inculcated and enculturated him. Maybe you should try another approach and accept responsibility for the faction that created him.

He is claiming to understand the full "range of Christian views", so it won't do to just blame one subset of Christianity for coloring his views.

[Sea of red]

Baby is synonymous with infant, got that? It is not the same thing as a zygote, embryo, or fetus. I couldn't care less what dialogue you or your doctor used when you were pregnant. I have heard doctors I personally know use the terms fetus and embryo countless times, so don't act like it's not done, alrighty? And by the way, a dictionary such as webster is not a scientific dictionary either, and it's a slimy tactic to use but it's the only way you can muddy the waters to help disguise your arguments weakness's

Is that you Ben Stein? What are going to do next, start with the Nazi analogies and comparisons to eugenics? Get a grip and stop with the dramatics. If you want everybody to take your idea seriously, then be prepared for hard criticism and calls to back it up with more than emotional appeals and scare tactics.

You didn't answer it just fine. You squirmed like the little weasel we know you to be and used one of the most asinine arguments I've seen on this board in awhile. The fact of the matter is, you can't come up with a good argument for why when YOU kill other creatures for your own gain that it's not any less immoral by this logic. Be consistent or get it out. Make up your mind because you can't have it both ways.

The piss poor arguments you've used to justify your double standard are laughable, which is why I laughed at them, understand? The three points you gave were handily refuted and you just pissing a fit because your horrid logic is on display once again. I understand your position fully - and that's the problem. Just because a person won't swallow the incredible arguments of lilpixieofterror doesn't mean they didn't understand them.


Does this prove it's moral? No.


Does this prove it's moral? No.


Nope. They've been refuted pretty well. You are deflecting and distracting. You think you have the right to ask others any questions you want to while simultaneously ignoring their questions, and this time you're not getting to do that.

By this horrid logic that you call an argument, a lot of mentally disabled people and children can not be raped because they can't really understand the concept. Besides, it's not the capacity to understand you jackass, it's the intrinsic nature of the act being wrong from an objective point of view. You said that the food-chain is evidence of killing animals to be acceptable, I said if this is true, then why not take other cues from nature and have no sexual restraint. You wanna give that another shot, or do you want to just continue to reach new levels of fail?


I'm guessing you're talking about this:

Then way miss the point, genius. The obvious reference I was making to is objective morality that Christians say they believe in and are always using as example for whatever they want to often be law. The world of nature is cold and has no understanding of objective morals - that you say you believe in - and ask others to adhere to with you. At no point did ask you to back-up anything with the scripture that took up most of your response.



Good job on missing the point again. It's not about whether animals understand the concept, alright? It's about whether we should take cues from animal behavior and ethics like you did to justify eating other creatures. Geez, get your head out of the clouds and come back to Earth. If you can't understand this is my argument then get out of this thread and go play village idiot some place else.


Maybe not, but it's obvious I've got a better understanding than you do, and I've had other friends of mine that are biologists compliment my grasp of the field, what about you?

As I said before, you missed the point miserably.

Still a dumbass.




^
Well, this I could actually see you doing.



Let me know when you decided to stop burning these outrageous straw-men. Never said had anything to do with the ability to comprehend the morality of the act - those are your words.


You've completely butchered my argument, your argument, and have done nothing but throw up smoke screens to distract from your weak arguments. Why should anybody bother to do anything but laugh at you at this point?

1)You are not a zoologist, biologist, or psychologist and your track record on understanding these topics is pretty awful even for you, 2)Your argument is not an historical, genius, it's a biological and human psychological one. 3)Can you at least get your own insults instead of trying to poorly re-engineer mine like in bold?


[ATTACH=CONFIG]8403[/ATTACH]

So now rape is just a concept from humans? Crystal dear, you're playing in a territory known as subjective morality. I just threw it out there that it was surprising that you'd say this stuff - and thought you must have missed a contradiction in terms, but now we are seeing you pretty much embracing a subjective view of morality on one of the core issues of it. This is a stunning revelation and I appreciate you telling us all... even if it did just slip out.




You've really just owned yourself in this little match of ours so it's kind of hard for me to pick on you in a closing statement because I'm starting to feel bad about kicking somebody that's down.

1)You have not shown from a moral perspective why killing animals for your own gain is acceptable; you quoted bible verses.
2)You dishonestly use terms like baby interchangeably with embryo and fetus and use layman dictionaries to justify it.
3)You have thrown up countless distractions to deflect off your arguments weakness's, including the use of blatant straw-men.
4)You let it slip out that you basically are arguing these ideas from your own subjective morality.
5)You can't even come up with your own insults; you have to re-engineer mine.

You're just embarrassing yourself but if you want to continue in this argument of doom where you commit debate Harikari, then feel free to keep on keeping on. I'm game.

I have to laugh at myself actually using the word weakness's . I'd blame it on Abiword but hey, I'm the one that said it and that's what I get.

[Starlight]

What happened that you became an atheist? (if that question is permitted in this thread as it's quite off topic)

There are two parts to that. I grew up a moderate-liberal Christian and was an enthusiastic Christian for many years, including being an online Christian apologist for several years, and writing a book comparing different biblical interpretations. Over time I gradually stopped believing in the supernatural for a variety of reasons including:
- having never witnessed any supernatural occurrences, nor ever encountered convincing evidence that one had occurred
- being unconvinced that people who claimed God had 'told' them something had actually heard from God since they regularly contradicted each other or reality about what God had told them
- being disturbed by the amount of evil and suffering in the world, and subsequently considering it highly unlikely that a benevolent and interventionist deity existed
- being unimpressed by the extent to which different Christian groups could not agree with each other on doctrine or on what the bible said, and thinking that if God existed he'd done a pretty terrible job at informing humans on theology and morality

I gradually found myself being a Christian who appreciated the fellowship and moral teachings of Christianity, but who no longer really believed any parts of the supernatural teachings. But I thought overall Christianity was a good idea in that it gave meaning to peoples' lives and inspired them to love one another and give to charity etc.

When the gay rights debates blew up, I was absolutely horrified to discover the percentage of Christians who were anti-gay. I had always known that some Christians were anti-gay just as some atheists were, and I had occasionally discussed different interpretations of the relevant biblical verses with other Christians on the internet in a sort of intellectual-exercise kind of way. The majority of bloggers and ministers and theologians I was interacting with online on the subject were liberal. In my local university interdenominational Christian group, about 28 of 30 people had been pro-gay marriage, so I had naturally assumed from both my in-person and online experiences that anti-gay Christians were a tiny proportion and that the vast majority of Christians saw supporting the rights of oppressed minorities and showing them love to be a core biblical calling. I literally could not believe it at first when I discovered that the vast majority of Christians were anti gay marriage, and that far from being the main supporters and advocates of gay rights in the West, Christians were in fact the strongest enemy of them. That inspired a very rapid reappraisal of my view that Christianity was a morally positive force in society, and inspired me to take a more thoughtful look at history and morality and Christianity's influence on society. Anyway I felt I could in no way be part of a group that actively advocated for evil on such a fundamental issue of love and human rights.

Your great testimony is that you had no idea what Christians actually believed about...well...anything

On the contrary, I spent years and years researching, comparing, and contrasting, the different Christian beliefs and the different biblical interpretations that Christians have held over the millennia. I sincerely doubt anyone on this forum has comparable knowledge about the range of different Christian beliefs, particularly on the topic of salvation theology especially with regard to Paul's epistles. I was ignorant about the percentage of Christians who interpreted the bible in certain ways regarding the issue of homosexuality in the late 20th century, none of which had been my topic of study, although I was familiar with the various different possible interpretations of the relevant passages.

"think bullying gay people at every opportunity is a core Christian teaching".

Examples of Christians who hold such a view or something that begins to approach it fairly closely (though they themselves would likely claim they didn't) include: The Westbro Baptist church, Scott Lively, Bryan Fischer, Robert Gagnon.

You might be missing the fact that's not entirely his fault but the fundamentalist Christians who inculcated and enculturated him.

I never had overly much interaction with fundamentalists, whom I never considered 'real' Christians. I knew maybe five in person, and a handful who were posting here on TWeb.