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  • #46
    Originally posted by Raphael View Post
    So is your argument that having dinner with a social outcast means hating the people group both you, the outcast, and everyone else around you belongs to?

    You may want to withdraw that as an example of anti-semitism, cause that's some very shaky ground you're basing it on.
    The Jesus that dines with tax collectors is not authentic.

    “[In Luke, who adds this second part of the charge sheet, this reads:

    We found this man perverting our nation, forbidding [the nation] to give tribute to Caesar, and claiming himself to be Christ, a King. (23: 2)

    This charge about ‘forbidding to pay the tax to Caesar’ – aside from the related one about ‘claiming to be a King’ – is utterly surprising, since the Gospels go to such lengths to portray Jesus as recommending just the opposite (Luke 20: 22– 25 and pars). In our view, forbidding the people to pay the tax in this charge sheet in Luke was the authentic position of the Messianic Movement in Palestine and all its bona-fide representatives – there being no Messianism in Palestine that recognized the Roman Emperor.]”

    Eisenman, Robert (2012-10-11). James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Kindle Locations 5840-5847). Watkins Publishing LTD. Kindle Edition.

    Likewise, the anti-Semitism is not authentic Jesus. I am not saying that Jesus is anti-Jewish; that would be impossible, but the words put in his mouth are.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
      The Jesus that dines with tax collectors is not authentic.

      “[In Luke, who adds this second part of the charge sheet, this reads:

      We found this man perverting our nation, forbidding [the nation] to give tribute to Caesar, and claiming himself to be Christ, a King. (23: 2)

      This charge about ‘forbidding to pay the tax to Caesar’ – aside from the related one about ‘claiming to be a King’ – is utterly surprising, since the Gospels go to such lengths to portray Jesus as recommending just the opposite (Luke 20: 22– 25 and pars). In our view, forbidding the people to pay the tax in this charge sheet in Luke was the authentic position of the Messianic Movement in Palestine and all its bona-fide representatives – there being no Messianism in Palestine that recognized the Roman Emperor.]”

      Eisenman, Robert (2012-10-11). James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Kindle Locations 5840-5847). Watkins Publishing LTD. Kindle Edition.

      Likewise, the anti-Semitism is not authentic Jesus. I am not saying that Jesus is anti-Jewish; that would be impossible, but the words put in his mouth are.
      "Pharisees made up some fake charges (the not paying taxes) to get the Romans to execute Jesus" = the Gospel's portraying an inauthentic Jesus?
      "Jesus dining with social outcasts" = the Gospel's portraying an inauthentic Jesus?

      Yeah, I would delete the Eisenman book off your Kindle, it's not worth the MB its taking up on there.
      Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
      1 Corinthians 16:13

      "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
      -Ben Witherington III

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        Likewise, the anti-Semitism is not authentic Jesus. I am not saying that Jesus is anti-Jewish; that would be impossible, but the words put in his mouth are.
        You're relying entirely too much on Bultmann and his disciples.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          You're relying entirely too much on Bultmann and his disciples.
          The Bultmann of history or the Bultmann of religion?
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
            It's why John was killed you dolt.

            Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews

            He was a rabble rouser and it got him killed. I'm sorry that the history that is recorded here portrays a picture you don't like.
            Where does it say he was a rabble rouser? It explicitly says that Herod feared what he might become, rather than what he was. "Might put it into his power and inclination" implies it was not in either at the time.
            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Raphael View Post
              "Pharisees made up some fake charges (the not paying taxes) to get the Romans to execute Jesus" = the Gospel's portraying an inauthentic Jesus?
              "Jesus dining with social outcasts" = the Gospel's portraying an inauthentic Jesus?
              If Jesus was playing nice with the Romans, why would the Pharisees want rid of him?
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                If Jesus was playing nice with the Romans,
                He was?

                why would the Pharisees want rid of him?
                Jesus was kind to the down-and-outters - he blasted the religious leaders, particularly the Pharisees.

                Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness (Matthew 23:25-28 NKJV).


                He certainly wasn't "playing nice" with the Pharisees.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  If Jesus was playing nice with the Romans, why would the Pharisees want rid of him?
                  Because they didn't like him because he pointed out their hypocrisy and called them a number of things they didn't much like (Matthew 23:13-36))

                  He called them out on their corruption and hypocrisy and they didn't like it.

                  Because they considers His claims of Who He is to be blasphemous.

                  And Jesus largely ignored the Romans except for when they were trying to trap him into saying something to upset the Romans.
                  Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                  1 Corinthians 16:13

                  "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                  -Ben Witherington III

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                    Because they didn't like him because he pointed out their hypocrisy and called them a number of things they didn't much like (Matthew 23:13-36))

                    He called them out on their corruption and hypocrisy and they didn't like it.

                    Because they considers His claims of Who He is to be blasphemous.

                    And Jesus largely ignored the Romans except for when they were trying to trap him into saying something to upset the Romans.
                    “[The interest in ‘harlots’ and ‘adulteresses’ is also keen in Gospel accounts about their ‘Jesus’ as it is at Qumran, providing yet another of these thematic circles; but in the Gospels, ‘Jesus’ is depicted, as we have on several occasions remarked, as keeping ‘table fellowship’ with ‘Sinners’ of this kind. Such behaviour, if it were true – which it undoubtedly was not – would have sent groups like those represented by the literature at Qumran into paroxysms of ‘Righteous’ indignation. Of course, according to Acts’ distorted historiography, there were believers who were of the sect of the Pharisees, who rose up [at ‘the Jerusalem Council’] and said, it was necessary to circumcise them [meaning, Gentiles] and that they be obliged to keep the Law. (Acts 15: 5) As we have several times had occasion to point out, the use of the term ‘Pharisees’ in the New Testament – as in this instance – is often a polemical code for attacks on Leaders of the Jerusalem Community like James because of the perception of their ‘nit-picking’ attitude over points of the Law – an attitude amply demonstrated in ‘MMT’. On the other hand, there were real ‘Pharisees’ as well, but these were more like – politically anyhow – the kind, pictured in Scripture as harassing teachers like John the Baptist or Jesus. This picture is doubtlessly true, but ‘Pharisees’ of this kind were basically Herodian/ Roman clients. To be sure, all this is very confusing for the newcomer, as it is for the veteran scholar, but attention to political attitudes towards Roman power and the Herodian Establishment, as we have been emphasizing, will soon put one right in sorting out these conflicting code names.]”

                    Eisenman, Robert (2012-10-11). James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Kindle Locations 13036-13043). Watkins Publishing LTD. Kindle Edition.

                    “[Finally, we have placed James at the centre of sectarian and popular agitation ending up in the fall of Jerusalem, and we have identified the basic issues involved in such strife, particularly as these related to gifts from Gentiles and their admission into the Temple (considered ‘pollution of the Temple’ at Qumran) – reflected too in ‘MMT’ and its hostility to ‘things sacrificed to idols’. We have been able to use these parameters to point out Paul’s connections to the Herodian family and the kind of code that was being applied to such relationships – at Qumran and in Revelation, 2 Peter, and Jude involving ‘Balaam’, ‘Belial’ and ‘Devilishness’. It is these things that the Dead Sea Scrolls put in sharp relief. Without the Scrolls we would only have suspected them because of the mutually contradictory information in the New Testament and early Church documents. With the Scrolls for use as control, we get an entirely different picture of events in Palestine than either the New Testament or the documents of Rabbinic Judaism – now normative Judaism – provide. Whether James is to be identified with the Righteous Teacher at Qumran or simply a parallel successor is not the point – the Scrolls allow us to approach the Messianic Community of James with about as much precision as we are likely to have from any other source. One hopes that the arguments put forth in this book will lift some of the cloud of unknowing and misrepresentation surrounding these issues. Once James has been rescued from the oblivion into which he was cast, abetted by one of the most successful (and fantastic) rewrite enterprises ever accomplished – the Book of Acts – it is necessary to deal with the new constellation of facts which the reality of his being occasions. It will also no longer be possible to avoid the obvious solution to the problem of the Historical Jesus – the question of his actual physical existence as such aside – the answer to which is simple. Who and whatever James was, so was Jesus.]”

                    Eisenman, Robert (2012-10-11). James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Kindle Locations 13811-13821). Watkins Publishing LTD. Kindle Edition.


                    What is certain is that no preacher is planning to announce to his flock that Christians have been worshiping the wrong Jesus for two millennia and all the men must now be circumcised.
                    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                    “not all there” - you know who you are

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                      “[The interest in ‘harlots’ and ‘adulteresses’ is also keen in Gospel accounts about their ‘Jesus’ as it is at Qumran, providing yet another of these thematic circles; but in the Gospels, ‘Jesus’ is depicted, as we have on several occasions remarked, as keeping ‘table fellowship’ with ‘Sinners’ of this kind. Such behaviour, if it were true – which it undoubtedly was not – would have sent groups like those represented by the literature at Qumran into paroxysms of ‘Righteous’ indignation. Of course, according to Acts’ distorted historiography, there were believers who were of the sect of the Pharisees, who rose up [at ‘the Jerusalem Council’] and said, it was necessary to circumcise them [meaning, Gentiles] and that they be obliged to keep the Law. (Acts 15: 5) As we have several times had occasion to point out, the use of the term ‘Pharisees’ in the New Testament – as in this instance – is often a polemical code for attacks on Leaders of the Jerusalem Community like James because of the perception of their ‘nit-picking’ attitude over points of the Law – an attitude amply demonstrated in ‘MMT’. On the other hand, there were real ‘Pharisees’ as well, but these were more like – politically anyhow – the kind, pictured in Scripture as harassing teachers like John the Baptist or Jesus. This picture is doubtlessly true, but ‘Pharisees’ of this kind were basically Herodian/ Roman clients. To be sure, all this is very confusing for the newcomer, as it is for the veteran scholar, but attention to political attitudes towards Roman power and the Herodian Establishment, as we have been emphasizing, will soon put one right in sorting out these conflicting code names.]”

                      Eisenman, Robert (2012-10-11). James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Kindle Locations 13036-13043). Watkins Publishing LTD. Kindle Edition.

                      “[Finally, we have placed James at the centre of sectarian and popular agitation ending up in the fall of Jerusalem, and we have identified the basic issues involved in such strife, particularly as these related to gifts from Gentiles and their admission into the Temple (considered ‘pollution of the Temple’ at Qumran) – reflected too in ‘MMT’ and its hostility to ‘things sacrificed to idols’. We have been able to use these parameters to point out Paul’s connections to the Herodian family and the kind of code that was being applied to such relationships – at Qumran and in Revelation, 2 Peter, and Jude involving ‘Balaam’, ‘Belial’ and ‘Devilishness’. It is these things that the Dead Sea Scrolls put in sharp relief. Without the Scrolls we would only have suspected them because of the mutually contradictory information in the New Testament and early Church documents. With the Scrolls for use as control, we get an entirely different picture of events in Palestine than either the New Testament or the documents of Rabbinic Judaism – now normative Judaism – provide. Whether James is to be identified with the Righteous Teacher at Qumran or simply a parallel successor is not the point – the Scrolls allow us to approach the Messianic Community of James with about as much precision as we are likely to have from any other source. One hopes that the arguments put forth in this book will lift some of the cloud of unknowing and misrepresentation surrounding these issues. Once James has been rescued from the oblivion into which he was cast, abetted by one of the most successful (and fantastic) rewrite enterprises ever accomplished – the Book of Acts – it is necessary to deal with the new constellation of facts which the reality of his being occasions. It will also no longer be possible to avoid the obvious solution to the problem of the Historical Jesus – the question of his actual physical existence as such aside – the answer to which is simple. Who and whatever James was, so was Jesus.]”

                      Eisenman, Robert (2012-10-11). James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Kindle Locations 13811-13821). Watkins Publishing LTD. Kindle Edition.


                      What is certain is that no preacher is planning to announce to his flock that Christians have been worshiping the wrong Jesus for two millennia and all the men must now be circumcised.
                      What is certain is that Eisenman should not be taken seriously. Pharisees were Herodian clients???? If you paid anything for this drivel, you paid too much.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Isn't Eisenmann where the term 'eisegesis' comes from???
                        ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          What is certain is that Eisenman should not be taken seriously. Pharisees were Herodian clients???? If you paid anything for this drivel, you paid too much.
                          “[I just do not see any room for serious doubt any more. Teichner was right; Eisenman is right: the Scrolls are the legacy of the Jerusalem Christians led by the Heirs of Jesus: James the Just, Simeon bar Cleophas, and Judas Thomas. The Teacher of Righteous was James the Just (though Arthur E. Palumbo, Jr., The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Personages of Earliest Christianity, 2004, may be right: as per Barbara Thiering, John the Baptist may have been the first to hold that office, with James as his successor). The Spouter of Lies who “repudiated the Torah in the midst of the congregation” was Paul. It was he who “founded a congregation on lies,” namely the tragically misled “Simple of Ephraim,” converts from among the Gentile God-fearers who knew no better. The Wicked Priest was Ananus ben Ananus, whom Josephus credits with lynching James on the Day of Atonement.]” - Robert M. Price

                          Next up: The New Testament Code: The Cup of the Lord, the Damascus Covenant, and the Blood of Christ. - Robert Eisenman
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            “[I just do not see any room for serious doubt any more. Teichner was right; Eisenman is right: the Scrolls are the legacy of the Jerusalem Christians led by the Heirs of Jesus: James the Just, Simeon bar Cleophas, and Judas Thomas. The Teacher of Righteous was James the Just (though Arthur E. Palumbo, Jr., The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Personages of Earliest Christianity, 2004, may be right: as per Barbara Thiering, John the Baptist may have been the first to hold that office, with James as his successor). The Spouter of Lies who “repudiated the Torah in the midst of the congregation” was Paul. It was he who “founded a congregation on lies,” namely the tragically misled “Simple of Ephraim,” converts from among the Gentile God-fearers who knew no better. The Wicked Priest was Ananus ben Ananus, whom Josephus credits with lynching James on the Day of Atonement.]” - Robert M. Price

                            Next up: The New Testament Code: The Cup of the Lord, the Damascus Covenant, and the Blood of Christ. - Robert Eisenman
                            I see you've latched onto a new author to idolize because the spew nonsense you want to hear. Of course, you've been that way since you joined and had the faith designation of "Armstrongist"*. This sounds rather descriptive of you and those you've put on a pedestal.

                            2 Timothy 4:3 [Full Chapter]
                            For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

                            *That was back when he was reading Karen Armstrong I believe.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                              I see you've latched onto a new author to idolize because the spew nonsense you want to hear. Of course, you've been that way since you joined and had the faith designation of "Armstrongist"*. This sounds rather descriptive of you and those you've put on a pedestal.

                              2 Timothy 4:3 [Full Chapter]
                              For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

                              *That was back when he was reading Karen Armstrong I believe.
                              I have found what seems to me to be a productive seam. We all have teachers and we all follow our favourites. This is leading edge and controversial stuff mainly because the field is so ultra-conservative. Tradition has its place but it will copy errors endlessly.
                              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                              “not all there” - you know who you are

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                                I have found what seems to me to be a productive seam. We all have teachers and we all follow our favourites. This is leading edge and controversial stuff mainly because the field is so ultra-conservative. Tradition has its place but it will copy errors endlessly.
                                It's not so much leading edge as it is complete and utter twaddle.
                                Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                                1 Corinthians 16:13

                                "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                                -Ben Witherington III

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