Judaism: Polygamy and divorce

[Krusader]

Crusader:

You replied with a straw man. The fact that the level that is required to divorce was talked about in the 1st Century(as the article explains) does not prove the prevalence of harsh reason for divorce. For instance, the views of Shemmai and Hillel are still talked about today, but that does not prove a prevalence of the Hillel approach to divorce. The article has nothing to do with your assertion about there being a prevalence of that type of divorce in the 1st Century, or we could use the same argument to show similar reasons for divorce today(which it doesn't).

It seems your merely obfuscating now to cover up your tracks. It's more honorable to just admit you're wrong. We all are wrong sometime.

Well, Goose, you've read the New Testament, and you were a member of some kind of Mennonite group, right? Then you know what Jesus was dealing with and what he said. He addressed the misuse of divorce, and the NT account is my 1st century source.

[Krusader]

Gav, you're just jealous because Goose posts to me.

[Conductor42]

And it was facilitated by their Muslim environment.

And so were the anti-polygamous sentiments facilitated by the Christian enivoriment in the case of the Ashkenazi.

[Krusader]

And so were the anti-polygamous sentiments facilitated by the Christian enivoriment in the case of the Ashkenazi.

Interesting, and probably very true.

[Christian2]

Teh Hobbit,

Did he now? Where?

My JPS Tanakh says in Malachi 2:16,

For I detest divorce--said the LORD, th God of Israel--and coverning oneself with lwlessness as with a garment--said the LORD of Hosts. So e careful of your life breath and do not act treacherously.

[Conductor42]

Teh Hobbit,

My JPS Tanakh says in Malachi 2:16,

For I detest divorce--said the LORD, th God of Israel--and coverning oneself with lwlessness as with a garment--said the LORD of Hosts. So e careful of your life breath and do not act treacherously.

That is a (common) mistranslation.

Back when I had my website up, I had an article about this written by Nehemia Gordon clarifying the matter, and I've been able to find a copy of it at a geocities site

http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Tanakh/divorce.htm

In summary, a proper translation of the verse shows it to be a condemnation of people who refused to divorce. The article explains why they should have been divorcing, according to the Torah.

[Krusader]

That is a (common) mistranslation.

Back when I had my website up, I had an article about this written by Nehemia Gordon clarifying the matter, and I've been able to find a copy of it at a geocities site

http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Tanakh/divorce.htm

In summary, a proper translation of the verse shows it to be a condemnation of people who refused to divorce. The article explains why they should have been divorcing, according to the Torah.

Now, that was pretty fascinating. There's a lot of condemnation (especially among Christians) regarding divorce - but I believe that in some cases it is the only possible solution (abuse, for instance).

[Simeon]

4. Why is divorce so common in the among Christians and allowed in many churches when it was forbidden by Christ?

It is not forbidden by Jesus. God hates divorce but allows it.

[shunyadragon]

It is not forbidden by Jesus. God hates divorce but allows it.

I disagree because Jesus said "What God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." It is God who joins the man and woman together. Man cannot undo what God has done."

Paul added,


"But unto the married I give charge, yea not I, but the Lord, That the wife depart not from her husband (but should she depart, let her remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband); and that the husband leave not his wife" (1 Cor. 7:10-11).

"A wife is bound for so long time as her husband liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is free to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord" (1 Cor. 7:39).

Paul does speak of unsanctioned marriages 'not joined by God', as not recognized and unclean, and the children would be illegitamate.

[Conductor42]

Now, that was pretty fascinating. There's a lot of condemnation (especially among Christians) regarding divorce - but I believe that in some cases it is the only possible solution (abuse, for instance).

Absolutely, Crusader.

Divorce is never the ideal solution, but sometimes it is the only solution that is feasible. My parents are perfect examples of that.

[Dee Dee Warren]

I agree

[Krusader]

I disagree because Jesus said "What God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." It is God who joins the man and woman together. Man cannot undo what God has done."

Paul added,


"But unto the married I give charge, yea not I, but the Lord, That the wife depart not from her husband (but should she depart, let her remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband); and that the husband leave not his wife" (1 Cor. 7:10-11).

"A wife is bound for so long time as her husband liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is free to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord" (1 Cor. 7:39).

Paul does speak of unsanctioned marriages 'not joined by God', as not recognized and unclean, and the children would be illegitamate.

Paul also commanded a man to love a woman as he does his own body - when that is absent in a marriage, and the man is abusive to the point of endangering not only his wife, but possibly other family members as well, I do not see the Scriptures commanding any woman to remain in such a situation. If the abusive spouse won't leave (and most times they won't), then the abused spouse must get out (generally this must be done secretly, since an abuser may even resort to killing the abused spouse who wishes to exit the situation). Note that the NT does not really address these issues, and we must use the common sense that God has given us. Yes, God hates divorce, but He also hates abuse and murder. In fact, I'd suggest that remaining in an abusive situation, especially when children are involved, is sinful.

By the way, why quote the NT when you are into Bahai? What do you think Jesus was saying when He stated, "No man comes to the Father but by ME?" Do you think He makes an allowance for those who want to obtain salvation through Baha'u'allah?

[Christian2]

Thanks for setting me straight, Hobbit. :)

Crusader,

I was reading some Bible commentary by NT Wright a couple of days ago and he said that some Christians in Africa still practice polygamy. I was very surprised to hear that. He didn't give sources. Is this news to you?

[Gavriel]

Thanks for setting me straight, Hobbit. :)

Crusader,

I was reading some Bible commentary by NT Wright a couple of days ago and he said that some Christians in Africa still practice polygamy. I was very surprised to hear that. He didn't give sources. Is this news to you?

If you google "Christians + Africa + polygamy" there are a number of hits that talk about this very issue. It appears it still is going on in Africa.

[Krusader]

Thanks for setting me straight, Hobbit. :)

Crusader,

I was reading some Bible commentary by NT Wright a couple of days ago and he said that some Christians in Africa still practice polygamy. I was very surprised to hear that. He didn't give sources. Is this news to you?

Yes, I believe that is right. When a polygamist African comes to Christ out of shamanism or paganism, they often may be involved in a polygamous relationship. Some Christians might feel that the only right thing to do is to send away the second wife or for her to remain celibate. Others say, that it is unreasonable and possibly dangerous to send away the second wife. As far as the NT goes, it would appear that love is the most important quality to show in this situation. Of course, there are verses in the NT which clearly state that a polygamist could not be a leader in the Christian body.

Under no, circumstances, however, would the Christian Gospel allow a man who is already a believer to take another wife. This is clearly prohibited by the NT documents. The situation above deals with those coming out of pagan religious systems and turning to Christ.

Note: The Anglican Church in Africa, which is really growing quickly, has encountered this situation. You might find information be doing a search on Anglicanism in Africa.