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Hello 37818 & Pentecost,
This is a split from here.
I was referring to the use of "πνεῦμα" throughout Romans 8, which is why I encouraged 37818 to "Have a read of all of Romans 8..."
In anycase you got me thinking. When I replied to 37818 in connection with "Who resurrected Jesus?", I had only done a cursory revision (read) of Romans 8:9-16 and was largely working from memory. So as a remedial excercise I've embarked on a study of Romans 8 and its use of the word "πνεῦμα".
Below is a work in progess but I present it now to give you an insight regarding my thoughts on the Parakletos who Jesus calls the Holy Spirit (John 14:26). I am fully open to correction and guidence, in fact I would welcome such! Well, as long as any criticisms etc are based on appeals to the scriptures and not dogmatics ;-}.
_________________________
Notes on the usage of "πνεύμα" in Romans 8:1-16
I am RCC and so adhere to the Nicean teaching of the Trinity. I'm not alone, most Christian ecclesia adhere to the teaching of the Nicean Trinity which holds that there are three distinct hypostases (persons) that are homoousios (consubstantal), the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is essential to Nicean teaching that the distinction between the three hypostases (persons) be protected at all times.
Note: Apart from my Orthodox Trinitarian beliefs, the only prejudice I deliver to this study, that pre-empts this study, is that A.Paul was not compiling a book of dogmatics or theological premises but was delivering a pastoral message. So what was his message???Personal Opinion - the "Spirit" in the OT & NTThe Parakletos
At John 14:26 Jesus refers to the Parakletos as "the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name".
There is no consensus as to how the word should be translated into English. The KJV, ESV, ASV, YLT, DBY, WEB render Comforter; NKJV, NASB = Helper; NLT, NET, NIV = Advocate; RSV, HCSB, HNV = Counselor. At 1 John 2:1 most translations render Advocate (DBY = Patron; HNV = Counselor).
Various writers I've come across describe the Parakletos as a "Mr Fix It" (much like a mechanic or electrician). I don't think such fully accords with the scriptural witness. From Jesus' description of the Parakletos' function I see the Parakletos as an educator (cp. John 14:26 "He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you"). From John 14:16 with Romans 8:26 I also perceive the Parakletos as our spritual guide, our helper and our advocate as we stand before the judgement-seat.
Many years ago, I thought of the Parakletos as our Lawyer/Barrister, but imu that isn't quite the correct analogy. These days I contemplate him as our "character witness" cp. John 15:26, "...the Parakletos...shall testify about me [Jesus]"; also see 1 John 2:1 where Jesus is described as "the parakletos with the Father". In our case, I contemplate the Parakletos as our "character witness" at our pre-sentencing trial - we've already been found guilty (cp. Rom 3:23), now the recompense is to be determined.
Of interest: At John 14:16 Jesus promises "I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Parakletos to help you and be with you forever." While on earth Jesus was the disciples Parakletos, but he was soon to depart, so he promised another Parakletos would be sent who would remain with them forever. However, if you sin, be comforted, for in heaven, Jesus Christ pleads our case before the Father", just as the Paracletos that was sent to us intercedes between us and the Son.
Imu, the Parakletos has also the function of inspiring us to seek an intimate relationship with the Father and his Son. John 17:3 comes to mind: "this is eternal life, ἵνα γινώσκωσιν σὲ, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
ἵνα γινώσκωσιν σὲ = that they may γινώσκω you. Ginōskō refers to experential knowledge, not intellectual, intuitive or experimental knowledge. That is: ginōskō refers to a knowledge that can only be derived from the direct experience of participating in an intimate relationship.
Imu, whilst many people are shy of approaching the Son in an intimate manner (and even moreso the Father), should we call on the Parakletos for assistence (cp. Rom 8:26; John 14:26; 16:13-15), the Parakletos will tutor us and give us confidence to take the first steps, and guide us as our relationship matures.
Some "christian" groups perceive the Parakletos as a non-entity, an "active force", an emanation that proceeds from the Father through the Son (cp. John 14:26; 15:26; 16:17) or from the Father and the Son (cp. Rev 22:1), or exclusively from the Father (cp. John 15:26). However, the apostle John makes it plain that the Parakletos has a real and concrete subsistence (has hypostasis). He is sent, just as Jesus was sent, and just as the Son possesses all the Father possesses, so the Parakleos possesses all that the Son possesses (John 16:14-15). Thus the Nicean churches accept scriptures' witness and recognise the Parakletos as having a real and concrete subsistence (has hypostasis), whose source and cause, like the Son, is exclusively of the Father, and as such the Parakletos is homoousios (consubstantial) with the Father and the Son.
There are "christian" groups that accept that the Parakletos has hypostasis but reject the teaching of homoousios. such groups hold that the Parakletos is a creation of the Son (cp. John 1:3).
_________________________
Romans 8:1-8
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is lifeRomans 8:9-10
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His [NIV: they do not belong to Christ]. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.". The NIV renders "the Spirit gives life"; the NASB, HNV renders "the Spirit is alive".
Notice the qualification, we can only be in the Spirit if we have the indwelling of God the Father's Spirit (nb: A.Paul with few exceptions, if any, in all his epistles equates "God" with God the Father, and equates "the Lord" with Jesus Christ. cp. Rom 1:7). Likewise to belong to Jesus Christ we must have the Spirit of Christ indwelling in us. John 17:19-21 comes immediately to mind "...for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us..."
Scripture depicts the Father, Son, Parakletos and us as distinct hypostases (persons), so imo John 17:19-21 is not refering to a union of hypostases (persons), but a spiritual communication between us that binds our co-inherence (the perichoresis). I perceive the Parakletos as the glue that maintains our union with the Father and the Son through his various roles in education and support.
You are...in the Spirit, if... the Spirit of God dwells in you. What does this mean? Compare 1 John 4:15-16: "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him".
if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. What does this mean? Compare 1 John 3:14,16 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brotherfn abides in death...By this we know love, because [the Son] laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren..."
To be continued...
This is a split from here.
Originally posted by pentecost
In anycase you got me thinking. When I replied to 37818 in connection with "Who resurrected Jesus?", I had only done a cursory revision (read) of Romans 8:9-16 and was largely working from memory. So as a remedial excercise I've embarked on a study of Romans 8 and its use of the word "πνεῦμα".
Below is a work in progess but I present it now to give you an insight regarding my thoughts on the Parakletos who Jesus calls the Holy Spirit (John 14:26). I am fully open to correction and guidence, in fact I would welcome such! Well, as long as any criticisms etc are based on appeals to the scriptures and not dogmatics ;-}.
_________________________
Notes on the usage of "πνεύμα" in Romans 8:1-16
I am RCC and so adhere to the Nicean teaching of the Trinity. I'm not alone, most Christian ecclesia adhere to the teaching of the Nicean Trinity which holds that there are three distinct hypostases (persons) that are homoousios (consubstantal), the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is essential to Nicean teaching that the distinction between the three hypostases (persons) be protected at all times.
Note: Apart from my Orthodox Trinitarian beliefs, the only prejudice I deliver to this study, that pre-empts this study, is that A.Paul was not compiling a book of dogmatics or theological premises but was delivering a pastoral message. So what was his message???Personal Opinion - the "Spirit" in the OT & NTThe Parakletos
At John 14:26 Jesus refers to the Parakletos as "the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name".
There is no consensus as to how the word should be translated into English. The KJV, ESV, ASV, YLT, DBY, WEB render Comforter; NKJV, NASB = Helper; NLT, NET, NIV = Advocate; RSV, HCSB, HNV = Counselor. At 1 John 2:1 most translations render Advocate (DBY = Patron; HNV = Counselor).
Various writers I've come across describe the Parakletos as a "Mr Fix It" (much like a mechanic or electrician). I don't think such fully accords with the scriptural witness. From Jesus' description of the Parakletos' function I see the Parakletos as an educator (cp. John 14:26 "He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you"). From John 14:16 with Romans 8:26 I also perceive the Parakletos as our spritual guide, our helper and our advocate as we stand before the judgement-seat.
Many years ago, I thought of the Parakletos as our Lawyer/Barrister, but imu that isn't quite the correct analogy. These days I contemplate him as our "character witness" cp. John 15:26, "...the Parakletos...shall testify about me [Jesus]"; also see 1 John 2:1 where Jesus is described as "the parakletos with the Father". In our case, I contemplate the Parakletos as our "character witness" at our pre-sentencing trial - we've already been found guilty (cp. Rom 3:23), now the recompense is to be determined.
Of interest: At John 14:16 Jesus promises "I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Parakletos to help you and be with you forever." While on earth Jesus was the disciples Parakletos, but he was soon to depart, so he promised another Parakletos would be sent who would remain with them forever. However, if you sin, be comforted, for in heaven, Jesus Christ pleads our case before the Father", just as the Paracletos that was sent to us intercedes between us and the Son.
Imu, the Parakletos has also the function of inspiring us to seek an intimate relationship with the Father and his Son. John 17:3 comes to mind: "this is eternal life, ἵνα γινώσκωσιν σὲ, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
ἵνα γινώσκωσιν σὲ = that they may γινώσκω you. Ginōskō refers to experential knowledge, not intellectual, intuitive or experimental knowledge. That is: ginōskō refers to a knowledge that can only be derived from the direct experience of participating in an intimate relationship.
Imu, whilst many people are shy of approaching the Son in an intimate manner (and even moreso the Father), should we call on the Parakletos for assistence (cp. Rom 8:26; John 14:26; 16:13-15), the Parakletos will tutor us and give us confidence to take the first steps, and guide us as our relationship matures.
Some "christian" groups perceive the Parakletos as a non-entity, an "active force", an emanation that proceeds from the Father through the Son (cp. John 14:26; 15:26; 16:17) or from the Father and the Son (cp. Rev 22:1), or exclusively from the Father (cp. John 15:26). However, the apostle John makes it plain that the Parakletos has a real and concrete subsistence (has hypostasis). He is sent, just as Jesus was sent, and just as the Son possesses all the Father possesses, so the Parakleos possesses all that the Son possesses (John 16:14-15). Thus the Nicean churches accept scriptures' witness and recognise the Parakletos as having a real and concrete subsistence (has hypostasis), whose source and cause, like the Son, is exclusively of the Father, and as such the Parakletos is homoousios (consubstantial) with the Father and the Son.
There are "christian" groups that accept that the Parakletos has hypostasis but reject the teaching of homoousios. such groups hold that the Parakletos is a creation of the Son (cp. John 1:3).
_________________________
Romans 8:1-8
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is lifeRomans 8:9-10
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His [NIV: they do not belong to Christ]. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.". The NIV renders "the Spirit gives life"; the NASB, HNV renders "the Spirit is alive".
Notice the qualification, we can only be in the Spirit if we have the indwelling of God the Father's Spirit (nb: A.Paul with few exceptions, if any, in all his epistles equates "God" with God the Father, and equates "the Lord" with Jesus Christ. cp. Rom 1:7). Likewise to belong to Jesus Christ we must have the Spirit of Christ indwelling in us. John 17:19-21 comes immediately to mind "...for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us..."
Scripture depicts the Father, Son, Parakletos and us as distinct hypostases (persons), so imo John 17:19-21 is not refering to a union of hypostases (persons), but a spiritual communication between us that binds our co-inherence (the perichoresis). I perceive the Parakletos as the glue that maintains our union with the Father and the Son through his various roles in education and support.
You are...in the Spirit, if... the Spirit of God dwells in you. What does this mean? Compare 1 John 4:15-16: "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him".
if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. What does this mean? Compare 1 John 3:14,16 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brotherfn abides in death...By this we know love, because [the Son] laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren..."
To be continued...
). Ultimately, I always end up with a resolution...So if things get a bit lonely or overwhelming find a quite place and have a conversation...
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