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Thread: The Antichrist

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    tWebber
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    The Antichrist

    When even the staunchest defenders of futurism here are beginning to question the individuality of the Antichrist, there is a problem which sorely needs addressing. Especially because he's already here. So obviously it is of paramount importance that Christians are able to identify the greatest enemy Christianity has ever faced to rightly and firmly resist him.

    I can understand why preterists deny the personhood of the Antichrist, since they are in denial about all eschatology, but how can any futurist make sense of the endtimes without an individual Antichrist? Will the targeted persecution of Christians be completely spontaneous and not directed by any governing agency? How do you explain "the whole world" marveling after the beast and worshipping it? Men can't really worship an idea or marvel at a philosophy.

    I suspect part of the problem for most who have a mistaken understanding of eschatology (and the Bible in general) is an inability to fathom the depth of evil. Corresponding to this is an inability to fathom the depth of God's love, which is why so many of even Christians have such a woefully inadequate relationship with Him, but that is not the focus at present. Many people have a stagey, cartoonish view of the devil wherein he is evil because he can't help it as he bumbles his way from one wicked deed to the next. But that is not how the Bible presents him:

    Scripture Verse: Job 1:6-7

    One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. The Lord said to Satan, Where have you come from?

    Satan answered the Lord, From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Luke 4:5-7

    The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: 2 Corinthians 4:4

    The god of this age [the devil] has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: 1 Peter 5:8

    Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

    © Copyright Original Source



    The Bible presents the devil as having authority over the earth and being the "god" of this world. And he says "and I can give it [his authority] to anyone I want to." The Bible supports that, too:

    Scripture Verse: Revelation 13:2

    The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

    © Copyright Original Source



    So the devil gives some of his authority over the earth to people willing to serve him and his ends. And he has done this since he first took that authority from our fallen parents:

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 4:6-7

    Then the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: 1 John 3:12

    Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Cain sided with the devil against the Lord and taught his descendants to do so, which is why they were instructed in the "crafts" of metalworking, astrology, music, geometry, etc. by the fallen angels:

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 4:19-22

    Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. His brothers name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play stringed instruments and pipes. Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Genesis 6:1-2, 4

    When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. ... The Nephilim were on the earth in those daysand also afterwardwhen the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Book of Enoch Chapters 6, 7, 8

    1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' 3. And Semjz, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' 4. And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' 5. Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 6. And they were in all two hundred; who descended ⌈in the days⌉ of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 7. And these are the names of their leaders: Smazz, their leader, Arkba, Rml, Kkabl, Tml, Rml, Dnl, zql, Barqjl, Asl, Armrs, Batrl, Annl, Zaql, Samspl, Satarl, Trl, Jmjl, Saril. 8. These are their chiefs of tens.

    1. And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. 2. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: 3. Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, 4. the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. 5. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. 6. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

    1. And Azzl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals 〈of the earth〉 and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. 2. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjz taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armrs the resolving of enchantments, Barqjl, (taught) astrology, Kkabl the constellations, Ezql the knowledge of the clouds, 〈Araqil the signs of the earth, Shamsil the signs of the sun〉, and Saril the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .


    The reason I put "craft" in quotes is because this is the term given to the knowledge the fallen angels gave mankind and how those initiated into these dark arts/sayings refer subtly to their knowledge. These angels were called "Watchers" and their knowledge witch-craft. The Antichrist will be a master at the "craft" and proficient in the "dark sayings":

    Scripture Verse: Daniel 8:23-25

    And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

    And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

    And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Cain and his descendants served Satan and the fallen angels openly and their wickedness became so great that God had to send the Flood to "reset" the human race. But the Nephilim were upon the earth both before and after the Flood and one of Cain's descendants became so powerful in his Satanic rebellion that God had to intervene personally:

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 10:8-12

    Cush was the father of Nimrod, who became a mighty warrior on the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; that is why it is said, Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the Lord. The first centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Uruk, Akkad and Kalneh, in Shinar. From that land he went to Assyria, where he built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah and Resen, which is between Nineveh and Calahwhich is the great city.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Genesis 11:1-9

    Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

    They said to each other, Come, lets make bricks and bake them thoroughly. They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. Then they said, Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.

    But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.

    So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babelbecause there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

    © Copyright Original Source



    According to tradition, part of the means God used to stop Nimrod's rebellion was to send Shem son of Noah to kill him. But whatever the reason, the worship of the dragon went underground at this point and became known as the "mysteries", passed on only to the "initiated" who could be trusted or intimidated into keeping it secret. The mystery religion passed on from the Canaanites to the Egyptians to the Assyrians to the Babylonians to the Greeks to the Romans to the Gnostics to the Masons. All the while the goal has been to defeat the people of God once and for all and reinstitute a Luciferian world order--a new Atlantis.

    Joseph Smith, a Master Mason who took many of the Masonic rites and made them Mormon rites, knew about the true origin and purpose of the mystery religions/secret societies and wrote this:

    I.V. Genesis 5:15; PGP Moses 5:28-31

    28 And it came to pass that Cain took one of his brothers daughters to wife, and they loved Satan more than God.

    29 And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if they tell it, they shall surely die; and this that thy father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.

    30 And Satan sware unto Cain that he would do according to his commands. And all these things were done in secret.

    31 And Cain said: Truly I am Mahan, the master of this great secret, that I may murder and get gain. Wherefore Cain was called Master Mahan, and he gloried in his wickedness.


    The similarity between Master Mahan and Master Mason speaks volumes about where Smith may have been exposed to this truth.

    This Satanic religion took the form of a pagan trinity (Isis, Osiris, Horus, though they were repackaged under different names in various cultures) and some of its rites included cannibalism, sexual orgies, "sacred" prostitution (both male and female) and human sacrifice (including that of children).

    Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 44:15-18

    Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were presenta large assemblyand all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, said to Jeremiah, We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord! We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven [Isis] and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: 1 Kings 14:24

    There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 19:4-5

    For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned incense in it to gods that neither they nor their ancestors nor the kings of Judah ever knew, and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baalsomething I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

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    The effects of the Tower of Babel have very nearly been reversed. The world again speaks a common tongue. Again nothing that enters the mind of wicked man is impossible for them. Mankind has the power to destroy himself hundreds of times over and indeed, unless the Lord cuts short these terrible times, no flesh will survive. The New World Order that the secret societies have labored for so long is nearly upon us and their king is among us.

    Not only among us, he has usurped the throne of the most powerful nation in the world, appearing from nowhere and propelled by the power of a few to use this power as a steppingstone to the near absolute power he will one day wield. Claiming to be a man of peace, he has brought only destruction and indeed that is what he intends, to destroy nations not a few:

    Scripture Verse: Daniel 8:23-25

    And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

    And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

    And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Daniel 11:21

    He will be succeeded by a contemptible person who has not been given the honor of royalty [usurps power]. He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue. [a Manchurian candidate, bred and raised by the intelligence agencies]

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Isaiah 10:3-7

    And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from far? to whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?

    Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

    O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

    I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

    Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Isaiah 10:12

    Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Daniel 7:20-25

    And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

    Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

    And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Like Christ, the Antichrist is given many titles and names throughout Scripture, including, but not limited to, the destroyer, the son of perdition, the sword, the prince of Tyre, the wicked and profane prince of Israel, the beast, the Antichrist, the liar, the deceiver, the idol shepherd, etc. The seminal work of Dr. Avraham Gileadi on the book of Isaiah, which can be found here, shows that one of the Antichrist's titles--the Assyrian--reflects his political office while the title of "King of Babylon" reflects his religious pretensions, Babylon representing the origin of false religion and "King of Babylon" representing his claim to godhood.

    There is much more that can be said about this individual, but this is a good start to proving his individuality. Lord, please give those who read this the discernment to accept the truth and prepare themselves to withstand this son of the evil one and those who serve him.

  2. #2
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    According to John (1 John 2:18-22) There are many antichrists, and they were already here back in his time, nearly two thousand years ago. Anybody who at one time professed to be a Christian, then turned away and denied the incarnation of Jesus fit his description of an antichrist. It doesn't appear that John was referring to any one particular person with that name. So yes, I would deny the personhood of an individual antichrist. It has nothing to do with denial of eschatology, because I firmly believe in the Bible's teaching that Jesus will some day return to this earth.

    I note that you quote from the New International Version most of the time, but you reverted to the King James (Pure Cambridge) translation for Daniel 8:23-25. Was it that you held preference for the phrases you highlighted? That passage refers to Antiochus IV Epiphahes, the king of Syria who greatly oppressed the people of Israel and sought to totally abolish the Jewish religion. The "latter time of their kingdom" refers to one of the four major kingdoms which broke off from Alexander's empire. As for "craft to prosper" (v. 23), the NIV correctly renders it "a master of intrigue." Albert Barnes, in his Notes on the Old Testament, says, "The meaning seems to be that he would be politic and crafty, seeking to make his way, and to accomplish his purpose, not only by the terror that he inspired, but by deceit and cunning. That this was his character is well known."

    As for Nimrod, Genesis 10:8-11 states that he was a mighty hunter before the Lord (in defiance of the Lord, according to Josephus and the Targums), and established a tyrannical kingdom which included Babel, Assyria, Shinar and other cities. But the Bible says nothing about him building the tower of Babel. That comes from Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews i.4.2, which he probably derived from the Gilgamesh epics, poetry from ancient Sumeria and Akkadia.

    (The tower of Babel, by the way, was not the only ziggurat which the Babylonians built, nor was it the largest. The ziggurat in Ur of the Chaldeans, the hometown of Abram/Abraham, was larger.)

    Then you proceed to quote from the Book of Moses, taken from the Book of Mormon, which is a document of pure nonsense written by Joseph Smith in 1830 and has absolutely no basis in history.

    I also wonder what significance there is in quoting the Book of Enoch. The section you quote is from the Book of the Watchers, a fantasy written about 300 BC which claims that fallen angels had sex with women, who then gave birth to enormous creatures known as Nephilim. The Hebrew word could also be translated "fallen ones", which would make more sense in the context of Genesis 6.

    As for "The New World Order that the secret societies have labored for so long," it sounds like you have been giving too much credibility to conspiracy theories.

    Lastly, Dr. Avraham Gileadi is a Mormon (except for the short period of time when he was excommunicated, then afterward readmitted, rebaptized and his record expunged). Perhaps this thread should be under LDS-Mormonism.

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    tWebber Pentecost's Avatar
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    I was with you until you quoted non-canonical sources (Enoch) and put them on the same level of authority as Scripture. Then I skimmed. I far prefer Preterist teachings over Mormon ones.
    I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Matthew 3:11

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    tWebber
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    I don't necessarily deny that he is an individual. It's just that I'm mindful that there isn't just a single "antichrist." There are multiple characters seen in scripture in the end times with specific roles. There's the Beast, there's the Dragon, and there's the False Prophet (there are also evil spirits that look like frogs, a ruler named Apollyon, ten kings that attack the Lord as he returns, etc., which I won't even get into), and Im not sure which Paul was talking about when he mentioned Man of Lawlessness, or which entity would manifest as the Man of Lawlessness.

    There are multiple issues with just the Beast of Rev alone. If the Beast manifests as an individual(s), then there's no way I can believe he's mere human for the simple fact that he has authority over all the inhabitants of the world, and that the world actually worships him. This means he must surpass human limitations and barriers that would make this impossible for a mere human on a collective global level (i.e. race, nationality, religion, heritage, gender, human fallibility, etc.). It's much more plausible in this context that he manifests as an extraterrestrial, or a genetically modified transhuman, or a super cybernetic organism, etc.

    The Beast can't possibly be Obama, for example, because Obama is not even liked by much of his own political base, much less western conservatives and even less by the rest of the inhabitants of the world. It's perhaps possible to assume that he is the False Prophet, but even this is problematic. To imagine Obama suddenly doing miracles doesn't fit his present character or role. It doesn't fit his history or the way the world views him. He's a political figure of a country that is waning in influence in the world (especially economically), without any religious, philosophical or spiritual role we've seen whatsoever.

    It's a very complex issue to me; much more complex than I believe furturists make it out to be, which is why furturists have been bungling throughout history trying to identify single leaders as the "antichrist." The subject is much more complicated than to just imagine a single "antichrist" human world ruler that will suddenly and rapidly become so liked worldwide that he is worshipped worldwide, and will instantly switch his role from a politician to a miracle worker that rules all sovereign nations of the world, including China, Russia, Europe, middle eastern countries, etc.
    Last edited by seanD; 07-26-2015 at 05:40 PM.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    According to John (1 John 2:18-22) There are many antichrists, and they were already here back in his time, nearly two thousand years ago. Anybody who at one time professed to be a Christian, then turned away and denied the incarnation of Jesus fit his description of an antichrist. It doesn't appear that John was referring to any one particular person with that name. So yes, I would deny the personhood of an individual antichrist. It has nothing to do with denial of eschatology, because I firmly believe in the Bible's teaching that Jesus will some day return to this earth.
    Scripture Verse: 1 John 2:18

    Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come.

    © Copyright Original Source



    He says the antichrist, referring to an individual. In fact, the verse doesn't make sense unless he is first referring to an individual before saying that a group similar to him was already present.

    I note that you quote from the New International Version most of the time, but you reverted to the King James (Pure Cambridge) translation for Daniel 8:23-25. Was it that you held preference for the phrases you highlighted? That passage refers to Antiochus IV Epiphahes, the king of Syria who greatly oppressed the people of Israel and sought to totally abolish the Jewish religion. The "latter time of their kingdom" refers to one of the four major kingdoms which broke off from Alexander's empire. As for "craft to prosper" (v. 23), the NIV correctly renders it "a master of intrigue." Albert Barnes, in his Notes on the Old Testament, says, "The meaning seems to be that he would be politic and crafty, seeking to make his way, and to accomplish his purpose, not only by the terror that he inspired, but by deceit and cunning. That this was his character is well known."
    I think the KJV is more faithful to the original text, but I use NIV for clarity's sake when I can. Antiochus Epiphanes was indeed a "type" of the Antichrist and even the first "fulfillment" of the prophecies associated with the Antichrist, but he was not given authority over the whole world. One of the ways God crams information into His word is by using puns, double and even triple meanings for the same passages. This allows for the whole truth to be extracted from His word only when one prayerfully and intensely studies it. The Antichrist will both be a man of intrigue (involved with the intelligence agencies) and a man who causes craft to prosper (adept in the occult).

    Then you proceed to quote from the Book of Moses, taken from the Book of Mormon, which is a document of pure nonsense written by Joseph Smith in 1830 and has absolutely no basis in history.

    I also wonder what significance there is in quoting the Book of Enoch. The section you quote is from the Book of the Watchers, a fantasy written about 300 BC which claims that fallen angels had sex with women, who then gave birth to enormous creatures known as Nephilim. The Hebrew word could also be translated "fallen ones", which would make more sense in the context of Genesis 6.
    The extra-canonical books are useful as history and accurate reflections of tradition where they cannot be considered Scripture. The ancient Jews believed that fallen angels had sex with human women.

    And the point with Smith's writing is that he was revealing the beliefs of Freemasons, an occult secret society of which he was an acknowledged member.

    As for "The New World Order that the secret societies have labored for so long," it sounds like you have been giving too much credibility to conspiracy theories.

    Lastly, Dr. Avraham Gileadi is a Mormon (except for the short period of time when he was excommunicated, then afterward readmitted, rebaptized and his record expunged). Perhaps this thread should be under LDS-Mormonism.
    Mere hand waving and labeling me a conspiracy theorist is not an argument. Here is what the Bible has to say about the existence of conspiracies:

    Scripture Verse: Psalm 2:1-6


    1 Why do the nations conspire
    and the peoples plot in vain?
    2 The kings of the earth rise up
    and the rulers band together
    against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
    3 Let us break their chains
    and throw off their shackles.


    4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
    the Lord scoffs at them.
    5 He rebukes them in his anger
    and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
    6 I have installed my king
    on Zion, my holy mountain.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Psalm 83:1-4

    O God, do not remain silent;
    do not turn a deaf ear,
    do not stand aloof, O God.
    2 See how your enemies growl,
    how your foes rear their heads.
    3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
    they plot against those you cherish.
    4 Come, they say, let us destroy them as a nation,
    so that Israels name is remembered no more.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Micah 7:2-4

    The faithful have been swept from the land;
    not one upright person remains.
    Everyone lies in wait to shed blood;
    they hunt each other with nets.
    3 Both hands are skilled in doing evil;
    the ruler demands gifts,
    the judge accepts bribes,
    the powerful dictate what they desire
    they all conspire together.
    4 The best of them is like a brier,
    the most upright worse than a thorn hedge.
    The day God visits you has come,
    the day your watchmen sound the alarm.

    © Copyright Original Source


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    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    "The extra-canonical books are useful as history and accurate reflections of tradition where they cannot be considered Scripture. The ancient Jews believed that fallen angels had sex with human women."
    The Targum Onkelos, translated into English, reads, "And it was when the sons of men had begun to multiply upon the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of the mighty saw the daughters of men that they were beautiful, and took to them wives of all whom they pleased." The words translated "sons of the mighty", or "bnei rabrebaia," could be translated "sons of the rulers."

    The Targum of (pseudo) Johathan ben Uzziel, translated into English, reads, "And it was when the sons of men began to multiply upon the face of the earth, and fair daughters were born to them; and the sons of the great saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and painted, and curled, walking with revelation of the flesh, and with imaginations of wickedness; that they took them wives of all who pleased them."

    I'd have to look into what the Babylonian Talmud may say on that topic, but he Targums make no suggestion that fallen angels had sex with women.

  7. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  8. #7
    tWebber
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    All the oldest translations have benei haelohim, which is why there is the alternative theory that the Sons of God represent the godly sons of Seth instead of actual heavenly bodies, because no one taken seriously disputes the actual translation. You're pretty much defeating your intention by disputing the actual translation from sons of God to sons of (the) mighty. It reminds me of the nonsensical disputed Psalms verse where all the oldest translations have "they dig into my hands and feet" replaced with the later rabbinical alternative "like a lion (they are at) my hands and feet."

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    tWebber eschaton's Avatar
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    There is so much overwhelming evidence about the union of rebellious angels and women. I suggest watching Brian Godawa's series at Youtube, or that of Dr. Michael Heiser. There are great books about the subject as well. The Seth idea was brought in by Jews near the end of the first century, and was later adopted by Augustine.

    Eusebius reported that those who followed the apostles were taught there would also be a lying end time deceiver referred to as antichrist (John 5:43). That's been the understanding of the church throughout history.
    Last edited by eschaton; 08-01-2015 at 08:01 PM. Reason: additional info

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    tWebber
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    2 Peter and Jude clearly referenced the book of Enoch (or at least an Enouch tradition about angels that the book of Enoch was espousing). Inerrantists that deny the benei haelohim were angels are in a quagmire.

  11. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  12. #10
    tWebber eschaton's Avatar
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    Here are a few verses in the OT, NT and Apocrypha.

    Gen 6:5 Now the giants were upon the earth in those days; and after that when the sons of God were wont to go in to the daughters of men, they bore children to them, those were the giants of old, the men of renown.

    Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
    Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
    2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
    2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
    2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

    1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Apocrypha

    Sir 16:7 He was not pacified toward the old giants, who fell away in the strength of their foolishness.
    Sir 16:8 Neither spared he the place where Lot sojourned, but abhorred them for their pride.

    3Ma 2:4 It was thou who didst destroy the former workers of unrighteousness, among whom were the giants, who trusted in their strength and hardihood, by covering them with a measureless flood.
    3Ma 2:5 It was thou who didst make the Sodomites, those workers of exceeding iniquity, men notorious for their vices, an example to after generations, when thou didst cover them with fire and brimstone.

    Bar 3:26 There were the giants famous from the beginning, that were of so great stature, and so expert in war.
    Bar 3:27 Those did not the Lord choose, neither gave he the way of knowledge unto them:
    Bar 3:28 But they were destroyed, because they had no wisdom, and perished through their own foolishness.

    Wis 14:6 For in the old time also, when the proud giants perished, the hope of the world governed by thy hand escaped in a weak vessel, and left to all ages a seed of generation.

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