Faroe Islanders massacre hundreds of whales

[Irate Canadian]

Of course not. But the point is simply that a mother who feels driven to abort her rapist's child in the aftermath of a brutal rape is clearly quite different from someone sacrificing children to Moloch. Jedidiah is demonizing certain women by saying they're equivalent to Moloch worshippers.

I agree with your first point but disagree with the second. Jed is only referring to women who to him, sacrifice/abort their children in the name of convenience.

[Jaecp]

I agree with your first point but disagree with the second. Jed is only referring to women who to him, sacrifice/abort their children in the name of convenience.

Do you think its a helpful line of attack? To frame it (to frame anything) in terms of Child Sacrifice to a Pagan Deity?

[Jedidiah]

I have a hard time believing that impoverished women who became pregnant after being brutally raped and want to abort because they can't afford to raise the baby and can't stand to have a monster's child grow inside them are "exactly equivalent" to people who sacrificed their children to Moloch.

And what is the percentage of abortions that are performed because of the rape of an impoverished woman? An insignificant percentage. The rare exception does not invalidate my comparison in any way.

The question remains as to whose rights are more important, the living baby or the troubled mother. Many of these troubled mothers go on to have their babies and love them. It is of dubious morality to punish an innocent baby for the crimes of an evil rapist. I would be more comfortable by far with the death of the rapist than that of the baby.

I think putting an end to abortion has to start by fixing the circumstances that lead people to think they have no other feasible choice, rather than demonizing those who choose it.

As has been pointed out there are many options, but fixing the circumstances that lead to rape will require putting an end to sin. We are not there yet - soon I hope, but not yet.

The fact is it is a bit of a stretch to include these relatively rare events with the mass of abortion events.

[Jedidiah]

Of course not. But the point is simply that a mother who feels driven to abort her rapist's child in the aftermath of a brutal rape is clearly quite different from someone sacrificing children to Moloch. Jedidiah is demonizing certain women by saying they're equivalent to Moloch worshippers.

First of all forgiveness is available to all sinners, these particular ones included. Aborting a baby is a horrible act, but so is adultery and many other sins. I am demonizing nothing or no one. Sinners condemn themselves and must repent and ask forgiveness. Even liars are sinners.

[Jedidiah]

Do you think its a helpful line of attack? To frame it (to frame anything) in terms of Child Sacrifice to a Pagan Deity?

I am only pointing out what I see as a pattern of modern society. You can pick out all sort of details, but our society approves and even encourages abortion for reasons of even minor convenience. Are there exceptions? Maybe a few and maybe not that is a matter of a separate conversation. My comparison - I was not trying to frame anything but a pattern of society - my comparison stands undaunted.

[Sparko]

If you want to see it that way. If a mother decides she doesn't want to have that child and takes a morning after pill, that's her decision. The fertilized egg feels nothing.

When you paint such a rosy picture of these difficult situations, you undermine your position. It is a horror to make a woman (or girl!) who was forcibly impregnated carry that child to term. If you want anecdotes, I got em. My wife's family has three--count 'em THREE--instances of daughters conceived from paternal rape. Wanna know how they're doing?

Why is it about what the embryo feels? How does that make a difference? Does that mean if I first administer anesthesia to someone then I can kill them because they will feel no pain? Or maybe giving someone an overdose of morphine should be legal, since they will actually feel good while I am killing them?

[whag]

Why is it about what the embryo feels? How does that make a difference? Does that mean if I first administer anesthesia to someone then I can kill them because they will feel no pain? Or maybe giving someone an overdose of morphine should be legal, since they will actually feel good while I am killing them?

No, I'm just getting the fetal pain argument out of the way. A fertilized egg isn't a baby, and you know it.

Pregnancy is sometimes dangerous and undeniably debilitating and unpleasant, and should only be voluntarily committed to at the mother's will. As the trauma of being forcibly penetrated and inseminated is severe enough, the woman shouldn't also have to be forced to incubate.

[Leonhard]

Would it be wrong for the parent of a born baby to terminate the baby's life because she decided they she wasn't ready to be a parent, or because the baby had resulted from a rape.

[MaxVel]

No, I'm just getting the fetal pain argument out of the way. A fertilized egg isn't a baby, and you know it.

Pregnancy is sometimes dangerous and undeniably debilitating and unpleasant, and should only be voluntarily committed to at the mother's will. As the trauma of being forcibly penetrated and inseminated is severe enough, the woman shouldn't also have to be forced to incubate.

As the trauma and stigma of being born to a single mother, and never knowing it's father, is severe, the child would be better off never being forced to be born at all.

[whag]

Would it be wrong for the parent of a born baby to terminate the baby's life because she decided they she wasn't ready to be a parent, or because the baby had resulted from a rape.

Do you mean is it okay for a mother to kill her baby?

[whag]

As the trauma and stigma of being born to a single mother, and never knowing it's father, is severe, the child would be better off never being forced to be born at all.

Even without those factors, I believe in some cases it would be better to not be born at all. It'd be better if despots weren't birthed, for instance. The moral ambiguity is thick here, which is why many Christian don't hold extreme views on abortion but more moderate ones.

[Leonhard]

Do you mean is it okay for a mother to kill her baby?

Yes, is it okay for a mother to kill her baby?

[Christianbookworm]

Yes, is it okay for a mother to kill her baby?

Apparently some people think it's okay for her to kill the baby if the kid's address is still mom's uterus.

[Sparko]

No, I'm just getting the fetal pain argument out of the way. A fertilized egg isn't a baby, and you know it.

Pregnancy is sometimes dangerous and undeniably debilitating and unpleasant, and should only be voluntarily committed to at the mother's will. As the trauma of being forcibly penetrated and inseminated is severe enough, the woman shouldn't also have to be forced to incubate.

A fertilized egg is an individual human being. We all started out that way. The rest is semantics. As a human being it has the right not be be killed for convenience.

[whag]

A fertilized egg is an individual human being. We all started out that way. The rest is semantics. As a human being it has the right not be be killed for convenience.

It's offensive to reduce abortion in the case of forcible incubation down to an act of convenience. By calling all abortions tantamount to fly swatting and making offerings to Molech, you severely undermine your position and will never save any lives.

That's how I know this really isn't important to you.