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Thread: The Decline of Mormonism

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janice View Post
    If it was started by a true prophet of God instead of Joseph Smith, they wouldn't need to change their teachings and temple ordinances to keep converts or attract new ones.
    Perhaps they need a Paul-like figure to stimulate the religion and make it grow.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorching Wizard View Post
    Perhaps they need a Paul-like figure to stimulate the religion and make it grow.
    They had one. Two actually. Brigham Young and John Taylor.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
    I find it interesting that you equate people growing intellectually to the rejection of modern prophets. Seems odd that a Christian would make the case for increased intelligence necessarily means a rejection of gospel truths.
    The rejection of "modern prophets" of Mormonism is more about realizing their false doctrines than about growing in intellect. There are no "gospel truths" in Mormonism. Every doctrine pilfered from Christianity is warped by others that make them internally incoherent.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  4. Amen Chrawnus, QuantaFille, klaus54, DesertBerean amen'd this post.
  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Mormonism is still booming numbers-wise so it remains to be seen whether these will play out. Roger Olson's (a Baptist who does not consider Mormons Christians) prediction is interesting. He thinks Mormonism will head in a more orthodox direction in coming decades.

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/ba...vation-140518/
    Edited by a Moderator

    Moderated By: Zymologist

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctrine Matters View Post
    I read that article and actually responded to it on Baptist News. It's simply not true. Mormonism hasn't become "more" Christian at all. It retains all of its core doctrines. It still teaches that God is an exalted man from another planet and that Jesus was the first spirit born to "heavenly father" and one of his wives. Satan being the second. Mormonism has simply changed its appearance. Hard liners like Dr. Peterson are no longer in control, and new, more charming, "apologists" have taken their place. It's a white wash. Their doctrinal stance has not changed at all. The Worldwide Church of God actually abandoned Arianism and embraced the Trinity. The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of LDS has now become more Trinitarian and closer to orthodoxy. The Mormons put on lipstick and everybody thinks they've changed.

    Regarding the cult's growth, see: http://www.mrm.org/fastest-growing-church
    I tend to agree that it would be difficult to retain the trappings of, really, anything and move toward orthodoxy. Maybe with an extreme form of accomodationism but I just don't see that happening with the majority of believers.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  7. #16
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Like lose the sci-fi/fantasy element of human aliens that can turn into gods given the right conditions? Wait, did I just make another joke about aliens with superpowers that look just like humans?
    Jesus Christ is an "Extraterrestrial"

    Full Definition of EXTRATERRESTRIAL
    : originating, existing, or occurring outside the earth or its atmosphere <extraterrestrial life>

    Since Jesus, his spirit, did not come from the Earth, then he is an "alien".

    Plus, he looks like a human (HE IS a Human) and had "superpowers".

    I guess all of Christianity is "sci-fi/fantasy" ... according to your criteria anyways....

    -7up

  8. Amen Apocalypticsights amen'd this post.
  9. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I tend to agree that it would be difficult to retain the trappings of, really, anything and move toward orthodoxy. Maybe with an extreme form of accomodationism but I just don't see that happening with the majority of believers.


    I predict that "Christians" will become more "Mormon" in their doctrine, not the other way around.

    Scholarship is moving that way.

    -Look how Christians changed their view concerning those who die in childhood without baptism would be damned. (which led to the practice of infant baptism early on in Christian history. (Or even those adults who die without hearing the gospel of Christ at all... Are they all damned to hell for eternity? Take a survey of Christians today and compare it to history, you will see that this perspective has changed.)
    -The "Social Trinitarinism" view is far closer to LDS theology than previous forms of Trinitiarianism (Moving to the idea 3 separate centers of consciousness).
    -Look at Old Testament Scholar John H. Walton and his teaching that Genesis 1-2 is essentially a "Temple Text", which fits into Mormonism very well. He also proposes that God's creation is organizing pre-existing things to God's purpose...
    -The rejection of ex nihilo will be next in Christianity. We discussed this at length previously on this forum. Old Testament Jewish scholars like John Levenson has advanced the idea of God creating from something rather than nothing. The Biblical exegesis of this was pounded out decades ago by Bruce K. Waltke (surprisingly published multiple times by the Western Conservative Baptist Seminary). David Ray Griffin and other Christian theologians came to realize the philosophical problem of evil that occurs with creation out of nothing, and try to deal with in in "process theology", which necessarily has to reject ex nihilo. Of course the extensive historical details of the emergence of ex nihilo were expressed by Gerhard May, in his scholarly work, which concluded that Ex Nihilo, as understood today, was developed in the mid to end of the second century A.D. Oh, and Blake Ostler shut down William Lane Craig's attempt to hold on to "ex nihilo" in his extensive defense; to which William Lane Craig and crew had no response.

    Pretty soon; those number of Christians who believe in Ex Nihilo, will be akin to those who believe that the Earth was literally created in 7 , twenty four hour days. It is an indefensible position historically speaking, Biblically speaking, and philosophically speaking.

    The Decline of Mormonism is only going to go along with of the Decline of spirituality altogether. Society is becoming more secular ... period. The mainstream Christians are partly to blame for that, because they present to the world a false form of Christianity which has a theodicy which is a philosophical nightmare .. again, which is impossible to defend, and thus is easy for the masses in society to reject.

    Congratulations on that to all of you.

    -7up

  10. #18
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
    I find it interesting that you equate people growing intellectually to the rejection of modern prophets. Seems odd that a Christian would make the case for increased intelligence necessarily means a rejection of gospel truths.

    Yeah,

    "2. ---------------- does not appeal to those with any intellectual capabilities. It appeals to the "gut" and to the "warm fuzzyists," but not to thinking people."


    Fill the blank with "Christianity". It works just as well.

    Christians LOVE the idea that the Holy Spirit can confirm truth ... UNTIL it confirms to them that the LDS church is true. Then they just reject that whole silly Holy Spirit thing.


    and number 5 on the list reminds me of something...

    "5. White Disneyworld type temples turn off a lot of people in today's economy where you have so many homeless and needy."


    Not only do LDS help the needy, but the person who started this thread should study the New Testament: John 12:4-6 .... he will find that he is playing the part of Judas.


    -7up
    Last edited by seven7up; 12-12-2015 at 09:26 PM.

  11. #19
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctrine Matters View Post
    From a Free Republic website coverage of a news segment dealing with the issue:

    "From the news segment: A new report quotes an LDS general authority who said more members are falling away today than any time in the past 175 years...according to a recent Reuters article citing LDS General Authority Marlin K. Jensen, for the church as a whole, the record in going in a different direction. Elder Jensen told the news outlet times have changed, and "attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years." Some church members ABC 4 talked to said they see the faithful leaving. "I'm from Chile and a lot of people just stop attending, they take it a little bit too casual," said Francisco Jerez, LDS Church member. So how bad is it getting? Right now there are more than 14 million members of the church worldwide. But according to the article, sociologists estimate active membership may as few as only five million."



    4. Young people on the whole aren't into the restrictions and demands Mormonism imposes.

    People would rather continue in SIN, rather than following Christ. No surprise there. They want to have sex outside of marriage, party, etc.


    -7up

  12. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by seven7up View Post
    I predict that "Christians" will become more "Mormon" in their doctrine, not the other way around.

    Scholarship is moving that way.

    -Look how Christians changed their view concerning those who die in childhood without baptism would be damned. (which led to the practice of infant baptism early on in Christian history. (Or even those adults who die without hearing the gospel of Christ at all... Are they all damned to hell for eternity? Take a survey of Christians today and compare it to history, you will see that this perspective has changed.)
    -The "Social Trinitarinism" view is far closer to LDS theology than previous forms of Trinitiarianism (Moving to the idea 3 separate centers of consciousness).
    -Look at Old Testament Scholar John H. Walton and his teaching that Genesis 1-2 is essentially a "Temple Text", which fits into Mormonism very well. He also proposes that God's creation is organizing pre-existing things to God's purpose...
    -The rejection of ex nihilo will be next in Christianity. We discussed this at length previously on this forum. Old Testament Jewish scholars like John Levenson has advanced the idea of God creating from something rather than nothing. The Biblical exegesis of this was pounded out decades ago by Bruce K. Waltke (surprisingly published multiple times by the Western Conservative Baptist Seminary). David Ray Griffin and other Christian theologians came to realize the philosophical problem of evil that occurs with creation out of nothing, and try to deal with in in "process theology", which necessarily has to reject ex nihilo. Of course the extensive historical details of the emergence of ex nihilo were expressed by Gerhard May, in his scholarly work, which concluded that Ex Nihilo, as understood today, was developed in the mid to end of the second century A.D. Oh, and Blake Ostler shut down William Lane Craig's attempt to hold on to "ex nihilo" in his extensive defense; to which William Lane Craig and crew had no response.

    Pretty soon; those number of Christians who believe in Ex Nihilo, will be akin to those who believe that the Earth was literally created in 7 , twenty four hour days. It is an indefensible position historically speaking, Biblically speaking, and philosophically speaking.

    The Decline of Mormonism is only going to go along with of the Decline of spirituality altogether. Society is becoming more secular ... period. The mainstream Christians are partly to blame for that, because they present to the world a false form of Christianity which has a theodicy which is a philosophical nightmare .. again, which is impossible to defend, and thus is easy for the masses in society to reject.

    Congratulations on that to all of you.

    -7up
    Still addicted to name dropping, I see...


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

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