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Thread: The Decline of Mormonism

  1. #21
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Still addicted to name dropping, I see...

    Actually, I posted the links, not just the names.

    People can investigate the truth for themselves, ... if they are interested. If not, they can stay here and hang out with you and Cow Poke.

    -7up

  2. Amen Apocalypticsights amen'd this post.
  3. #22
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seven7up View Post
    Actually, I posted the links, not just the names.

    People can investigate the truth for themselves, ... if they are interested. If not, they can study with the Mormons.

    -7up
    Fixed it for ya

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  4. #23
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seven7up View Post
    Of course the extensive historical details of the emergence of ex nihilo were expressed by Gerhard May, in his scholarly work, which concluded that Ex Nihilo, as understood today, was developed in the mid to end of the second century A.D.
    Gerhard May does so by suppressing or waving away contrary data.
    Source: Paul Copan

    Many have suggested that the intertestamental book of 2 Maccabees states clearly the traditional doctrine of creatio ex nihilo. There a mother pleads with her son willingly to accept torture rather than recant his beliefs:

    I beg you, child, look at the sky and the earth; see all that is in them and realize that God made them out of nothing, and that man comes into being in the same way. (7:28)

    Although May thinks that this passage does not have the necessary doctrinal context for the idea of creatio ex nihilo (pp. 6, 16), others are not so convinced. For example, Gerhard von Rad maintains, "The conceptional formulation creatio ex nihilo is first found" in this passage. Moreover, to say that there was no doctrinal context at all for such a statement does not seem quite right. After all, the Jewish understanding of creation was that "the world as a whole can only be understood in the context of its coming into being." It is, then, not a far step from this assumption to creation out of nothing.

    We find another reference to creation out of nothing in the Dead Sea Scrolls (which May does not even mention):

    From the God of Knowledge comes all that is and shall be. Before ever they existed He established their whole design, and when, as ordained for them, they come into being, it is in accord with His glorious design that they accomplish their task without change. (1QS 3:15)

    The noted first-century rabbi, Gamaliel, seems to have reflected this concept of creation in his thinking (although May calls this an "isolated" reference [p. 23]). A philosopher challenged him, "Your God was indeed a great artist, but he had good materials [unformed space/void, darkness, water, wind, and the deep] to help him." Gamaliel, responded, "All of them are explicitly described as having been created by him [and not as preexistent]."

    In the early Christian homily, Shepherd of Hermas, the first command is to believe that God brought all things "into existence out of non-existence."

    © Copyright Original Source



    In fact, those in the early centuries who claimed that God created out of formless matter (Philo, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria) were heavily influenced by Platonism (which held precisely that).
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  5. Amen Cow Poke, Chrawnus, Cerebrum123, Bill the Cat amen'd this post.
  6. #24
    Thanks Old Man... Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Gerhard May does so by suppressing or waving away contrary data.
    Source: Paul Copan

    Many have suggested that the intertestamental book of 2 Maccabees states clearly the traditional doctrine of creatio ex nihilo. There a mother pleads with her son willingly to accept torture rather than recant his beliefs:

    I beg you, child, look at the sky and the earth; see all that is in them and realize that God made them out of nothing, and that man comes into being in the same way. (7:28)

    Although May thinks that this passage does not have the necessary doctrinal context for the idea of creatio ex nihilo (pp. 6, 16), others are not so convinced. For example, Gerhard von Rad maintains, "The conceptional formulation creatio ex nihilo is first found" in this passage. Moreover, to say that there was no doctrinal context at all for such a statement does not seem quite right. After all, the Jewish understanding of creation was that "the world as a whole can only be understood in the context of its coming into being." It is, then, not a far step from this assumption to creation out of nothing.

    We find another reference to creation out of nothing in the Dead Sea Scrolls (which May does not even mention):

    From the God of Knowledge comes all that is and shall be. Before ever they existed He established their whole design, and when, as ordained for them, they come into being, it is in accord with His glorious design that they accomplish their task without change. (1QS 3:15)

    The noted first-century rabbi, Gamaliel, seems to have reflected this concept of creation in his thinking (although May calls this an "isolated" reference [p. 23]). A philosopher challenged him, "Your God was indeed a great artist, but he had good materials [unformed space/void, darkness, water, wind, and the deep] to help him." Gamaliel, responded, "All of them are explicitly described as having been created by him [and not as preexistent]."

    In the early Christian homily, Shepherd of Hermas, the first command is to believe that God brought all things "into existence out of non-existence."

    © Copyright Original Source



    In fact, those in the early centuries who claimed that God created out of formless matter (Philo, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria) were heavily influenced by Platonism (which held precisely that).
    I had posted precisely these arguments on the old site. He'll waffle with "it can be translated" and such nonsense.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  7. #25
    Thanks Old Man... Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seven7up View Post
    Actually, I posted the links, not just the names.

    People can investigate the truth for themselves, ... if they are interested. If not, they can stay here and hang out with you and Cow Poke.

    -7up
    As I post links and evidence to rebut your links.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  8. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  9. #26
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctrine Matters View Post
    Mormonism has had its hay day, but those days are over. People grow up intellectually. They don't buy into modern "prophets" who supposedly speak for God. They've seen the Koresh and Jones debacles. They are far more sophisticated than early credulous followers of Joe Smith - education does count. Here are some reasons Mormonism is on its way out:

    1. The internet has exposed many things about Mormonism that stop people dead in their tracks if they are considering it as a religious choice.
    2. Mormonism does not appeal to those with any intellectual capabilities. It appeals to the "gut" and to the "warm fuzzyists," but not to thinking people.
    3. Mormonism stands or falls with Joseph Smith - and he has been proven to be a liar, a womanizer (look at the "essays") and somebody that people of today really don't consider to be the idolatrous object worthy of praise which Mormons have always imputed to Smith.
    4. Young people on the whole aren't into the restrictions and demands Mormonism imposes.
    5. White Disneyworld type temples turn off a lot of people in today's economy where you have so many homeless and needy.
    6. Thanks to Newnamenoah, Mormon temple rites have been exposed and are seen by many as a Masonic-based charade. Freemasonry was the model of the temple rites, and it's in decline as well.

    That's just some of the things I can think of off the top of my head.
    I think you need to seek a little bit of love from the Most High Spirit.

  10. #27
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    The rejection of "modern prophets" of Mormonism is more about realizing their false doctrines than about growing in intellect. There are no "gospel truths" in Mormonism. Every doctrine pilfered from Christianity is warped by others that make them internally incoherent.
    Why would you say this?

  11. #28
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seven7up View Post
    Jesus Christ is an "Extraterrestrial"

    Full Definition of EXTRATERRESTRIAL
    : originating, existing, or occurring outside the earth or its atmosphere <extraterrestrial life>

    Since Jesus, his spirit, did not come from the Earth, then he is an "alien".

    Plus, he looks like a human (HE IS a Human) and had "superpowers".

    I guess all of Christianity is "sci-fi/fantasy" ... according to your criteria anyways....

    -7up
    haha so true!

  12. #29
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctrine Matters View Post
    The average convert lasts less than a year. The "growth" is mostly in third world countries where Mormon "missionaries" capitalize on the hard work of Christian missionaries who have preached the Gospel. My daughter and family do missionary work in Zambia and the Mormons will come in and lure the poor new Christians away. Also, Mormons tend to have more children than non-Mormons, and new babies are projected by the cult to be members, and are counted as such, even though they aren't baptized until age 8. If a person does not show up at a LDS Chapel for years and years, he is still counted as a member, even though he has left and is attending the Calvary Chapel down the street - a person must resign formerly to get off the membership rolls.
    Please knock off with the cult references. Mormonism is not a cult.

  13. #30
    Thanks Old Man... Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypticsights View Post
    Why would you say this?
    Years of study.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

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