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Thread: 37818: YHWH (1 or 3)

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    tWebber
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    37818: YHWH (1 or 3)

    This is a split from here.

    Quote Originally Posted by 37818
    #2. Do you or do you not believe YHWH is the Father, Son of God and the Holy Spirit? That the Persons, God the Father, Son of God and Holy Spirit are YHWH? Yes or no.
    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli
    #4.1. Do Christians baptise in the name (singular) of the Father, Son & Spirit? Three distinct persons (hypostases), one name.
    #5.1. No response from 37818
    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli
    #4.2. Remember, it is you who denied Genesis 19:24 referred to two persons (hypostases) = the YHWH in heaven and the one residing on earth whom Abraham recognised as YHWH (Genesis 18).
    #5.2. So because I affirmed they where the same YHWH, not two YHWH's. You conflate my argument of one deity with persons.
    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli
    #4.3 Also, have you not read that no one has ever seen God and lived, and yet Abraham spoke with him face to face and provided him (the YHWH residing on earth) with refereshment. (Genesis 18)
    #5.3. Yes. Since it is the only-begotten Son who appears (John 1:18; John 14:6).
    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli
    #6. Guess you don't realise you are contradicting yourself again! Read and think upon what you have written...
    #7. Ah, quote me. An let us address said contradiction.
    Read your post #5, your remarks are self contradictory, especially as a response to my post #4.

    In post #3 you demanded as an intended provocation (I had a good laugh at your pretense of outrage): "Do you or do you not believe YHWH is the Father, Son of God and the Holy Spirit? That the Persons, God the Father, Son of God and Holy Spirit are YHWH? Yes or no."

    I replied in post #4 "Do Christians baptise in the name (singular) of the Father, Son & Spirit? Three distinct persons (hypostases), one name." You failed to respond to that point. If you had responded to that remark, you probably wouldn't have contradicted yourself in your post #5.

  2. #2
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli View Post
    This is a split from here.

    Read your post #5, your remarks are self contradictory, especially as a response to my post #4.
    No. It is your contradiction, not mine.
    In post #3 you demanded as an intended provocation (I had a good laugh at your pretense of outrage): "Do you or do you not believe YHWH is the Father, Son of God and the Holy Spirit? That the Persons, God the Father, Son of God and Holy Spirit are YHWH? Yes or no."
    In other words you are not going to answer.
    I replied in post #4 "Do Christians baptise in the name (singular) of the Father, Son & Spirit? Three distinct persons (hypostases), one name." You failed to respond to that point. If you had responded to that remark, you probably wouldn't have contradicted yourself in your post #5.
    You expect me to answer you. But you refuse answer what I had asked.

    Give a direct short answer first. Then if you feel the need, give your long answer to explain your short answer. And fell free to still ask your questions.

    The Son of God is YHWH. John 8:56; Genesis 12:7.
    Last edited by 37818; 07-26-2015 at 08:52 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  3. #3
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    No. It is your contradiction, not mine.
    Nope it is your contradiction, you have been made too blind to actually see it (You remind me of Jesus' words at Matthew 13:15 ).

    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    In other words you are not going to answer.
    I already have answered you = 4.1. Three distinct persons (hypostases), one name.

    Have a read of Exodus 6:3 "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name YHWH I was not known to them". So according to YHWH what was the name people called him before he sent Moses to the Isaelites? Hint: it wasn't YHWH!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    You expect me to answer you. But you refuse answer what I had asked.
    I've already answered you, but as usual you have ignored my answer. Read scripture, pray to the Holy Spirit to guide you and if you are sincere the Spirit might heal your eyes so that can see my answer, and heal your ears / mind so you can listen to my answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Give a direct short answer first. Then if you feel the need, give your long answer to explain your short answer. And fell free to still ask your questions.
    Over the years I've answered your questions directly, and each time you have ignored them and jumped from subject to another. So I've figured out that you only listen to yourself, so I figure the only way to get you to lfocus on my answers is to make you apply your own intelligence (in charity, I'm assuming you are capable of reasoning from the scriptures). Now, walk through what you had proposed and see if you can deduce what I saw as a contradiction...

    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The Son of God is YHWH. John 8:56; Genesis 12:7.
    Acrually John 8:40 with Genesis 18.

    The texts you cite have no direct correlation outside of your own mind. Naive evangelist might link John 8:56 with Exodus 3:14, but most Christian scholars who study scripture equate it with texts in Isaiah - these point to Jesus as the Messiah, which Jesus was indirectly claiming to be when he says "Unless you believe ego eimi..."

    I've already discussed this with you, but as usual you appear to have blocked your ears / mind to truthful facts based on scripture and have ignored what I related.
    Last edited by apostoli; 07-27-2015 at 10:22 AM.

  4. #4
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Do you or do you not believe YHWH is the Father, Son of God and the Holy Spirit? That the Persons, God the Father, Son of God and Holy Spirit are YHWH? Yes or no.
    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli
    Do Christians baptise in the name (singular) of the Father, Son & Spirit? Three distinct persons (hypostases), one name.
    You didn't answer yes or no to my yes and no question. Referring to a post number does not show any contradiction. Maybe someone else who agrees with you might be kind enough to quote me. And show and explain the contradiction.
    If one relies on scripture for guidance your question can't be answered yes or no. There are implications. For instance: was the spokeman of YHWH who identified himself as the God of the Israelites forefathers and gave Moses his name as "eyeh"="YHWH" to announce to the Israelites, one or three persons? I nominate one.

    I see no reason why the three distinct hypostases (three distinct persons) in the Godhead, the Father, Son and Spirit, couldn't each possess the same name. Names are personal possessions of a hypostasis (person) which can change, not properties of an ousia which can't change. Has the ID of the three changed? Phillipians 2:9 leads me to think so.

    _____________________________-

    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    As for baptizing in the name[singular] of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I see no problem with that truth.
    Then you accept there are three persons each of whom have the name YHWH (or Jesus / Yeshua)?

    If so, why don't you accept that there was a hypostasis in heaven named YHWH and a hypostasis on earth named YHWH when we read at Genesis 19:24 "YHWH rained on Sodom and Gomor'rah brimstone and fire from YHWH out of heaven (RSV).

    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    You insist that "I am [he]" by Jesus in John 8:24 is not Himself referring to Himself being the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14.
    I don't insist anything. However, most Biblical scholars all point to texts in Isaiah which prophesied the Messiah. The context of the verses proves without a doubt what Jesus was talking about = which was the Jewish expectation.

    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    I read your arguments. You are wrong.
    Not my arguments, it is the argument of informed Biblical scholars who have read the LXX in Greek, and have studied Isaiah and John 8 (In the Gospels Jesus was fond of hinting at Isaiah's prophecies concerning the Messiah). So I have support, you are just crapping on as usual...

    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Jesus statement "that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins," has everything to do with believing, not only Him to be the Christ, but God in the flesh (John 1:10 etc).
    John 1:10? "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."

    Why didn't you cite John 1:11? It has more relevance. After all Jesus priority as a Jew was the Jews, and the salvation promises were made to the Jews, and Jesus ministry was amongst the Jews, "and his own received him not" (cp Jn 4:22).

    The Jews had no expectation that God would come for a visit, nor did they have an expectation that their salvation was dependent on God visiting. The prophets are totally silent on such matters. However, Isaiah is clear on the coming of the Messiah saying to the Jews a a child would be born who would be called mighty God and everlasting Father...for the zeal of YHWH of hosts will perform this (Isaiah 9:6-7).

    Not once in the Gospels did Jesus as much as hint that he was God, he didn't even claim to be the Son of God in the sense you and I give the phrase! He simply claimed to be doing the work of his Father. So on their understanding of that remark the Jews picked up stones to stone him. Jesus responded to their action saying" Many good works have I shown you from my Father; for which of those works do you stone me? The Jews answered Him, saying: For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God. Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods"' ? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’. If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him. (John 10-23-39).

    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    So if His deity is not meant, then as for dying in one's sins, denying His deity has nothing to do with it. Is that what you really think?
    More or less, though I believe Jesus died in his complete hypostasis as Son of God and son of man. Ultimately, I accept what scripture states. Jesus promised Peter he would be given the keys to the kingdom, even though Jesus knew Peter would deny him three times. I assume you acknowledge that the Son of God and the prophesied son of man are the same person (ie: Jesus Christ). Have a think on Luke 12:8-10 "I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God. “But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God. And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven".

    Jesus didn't come to the Jews (or us for that matter) as God but as one of our brethren (Hebrews 2:14-18 also consider Hebrews 2:6-8), if he hadn't his sacrifice was futile. Thus as our Kinsman redeemer he died and exchanged himself as God-man for our freedom (also see Romans 3:25-26; Colossians 2:9).
    Last edited by apostoli; 07-27-2015 at 08:04 PM.

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