Do we need just Faith or do we need works also

[Joe Gofish]

I would add something, but Muzz has well covered it allready! Pearls coming your way my friend ... in the meantime I'll just while I wait for Joe to figure out what hermeneutics means

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God." See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

excuse me Joe, requoting the scripture doesn't answer "where do you get your exegesis from", does it?

[Joe Gofish]

excuse me Joe, requoting the scripture doesn't answer "where do you get your exegesis from", does it?

Outside the Catholic Church the average person has an entirely erroneous idea of the Catholic Church's position on the question of good works. No Catholic has ever taught that a person can be SAVED by good works. Certainly he can be JUSTIFIED by faith, but not by faith alone.


"We are justified by a faith that worketh by charity. Gal. 5:6

[themuzicman]

Outside the Catholic Church the average person has an entirely erroneous idea of the Catholic Church's position on the question of good works. No Catholic has ever taught that a person can be SAVED by good works. Certainly he can be JUSTIFIED by faith, but not by faith alone.


"We are justified by a faith that worketh by charity. Gal. 5:6

While that may be the official doctrine, at certain times, the RCC has certainly leaned awfully hard towards works superceding faith in salvation.

Michael

[jonfan]

While that may be the official doctrine, at certain times, the RCC has certainly leaned awfully hard towards works superceding faith in salvation.

Michael

Prove it.

God Bless,
Jon

[Joe Gofish]

Prove it.

God Bless,
Jon

Keep in mind there are "good works" which are motivated by the "natural virtues" which even the pagans practice (justice, temperance, fortitude, et al)...such good works are "good" but they are not "good enough" to merit salvation. The chasm between fallen mankind and an all holy God is infinite and since we as mankind - of our own natural abilities - can only accomplish good works of finite worth we can never make the infinite reparation needed to reconcile with God. Such infinite reparation was only accomplished by the God-Man, Jesus Christ, who as man could represent you and me but who as God could make an act of reparation of infinite worth. This Jesus did by His life of obedience to God the Father "even unto death upon a cross."

Now, this act of infinite merit that Jesus accomplished was a "once and for all" deal - He only needed to do it once and by doing it He obtained for us - for all of mankind - a infinite treasury of merit which must now be applied to individual members of God's Elect.

Now, the "how" of this application of grace is what is at issue. Does Jesus simply "cover" our sinfulness without changing us? (as your baptist teacher (Sunday school)) or does Jesus work in us by the graces He won for us in order to:

1) adopt us into His Family, 2) bring us to faith, and 3) to grow in the image and likeness of Christ (which now includes "good works" motivated by the "Theological Virtues" of "Faith, Hope, and Love")

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph 2:10)

The "good works" that we are now talking about are not those accomplished outside of Christ which are powerless to merit anything from God in the Supernatural order but rather those "God prepared in advance for us to do" in Christ Jesus, such that they are not "our works" but rather Christ's who "lives in me" (Gal 2:20) of which St Paul affirms:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. (Romans 2:7)

...thus "good works" which GOD has PROMISED to reward! (see the difference?)

Keep in mind, the salvation that Jesus won for us is more than sufficient for our salvation - it is sufficient to cleanse us of all our personal sins (if we will repent and confess our sins), it is sufficient to change us into "new creations in Christ" (2Cor 5:17) in order to adopt us into the Family of God (if we will accept baptism), AND it is sufficient to make us holy in thought, word and deed IF we will only cooperate with the graces Jesus won for us to the point that we can say of our lives:

"I no longer live, but Christ lives in me." (Gal 2:20)

To say that "good works are not necessary for salvation" is to misunderstand the salvation Jesus accomplished for us...for He did not "save us" so that we might remain sinners and still obtain heaven...no, He saved us that we might truly become "saints", God's Holy People.

[Joe Gofish]

excuse me Joe, requoting the scripture doesn't answer "where do you get your exegesis from", does it?

Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation, because such is the teaching of Jesus Christ. What Our Lord demands is ``faith that worketh by charity .'' (Gal. 5 :6). Read Matthew 25:31-46, which describes the Last Judgment as being based on works of charity. The first and greatest commandment, as given by Our Lord Himself, is to love the Lord God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength; and the second great commandment is to love one's neighbor as oneself. (Mark 12:30-31). When the rich young man asked Our Lord what he must do to gain eternal life, Our Lord answered: ``Keep the commandments.'' (Matt. 19:17). Thus, although faith is the beginning, it is not the complete fulfillment of the will of God. Nowhere in the Bible is it written that faith alone justifies. When St. Paul wrote, ``For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law,'' he was referring to works peculiar to the old Jewish Law, and he cited circumcision as an example.

[Bill the Cat]

Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation

Joe, do you mean in order to obtain salvation or to maintain salvation given by grace through faith. This may be a matter of talking past each other. At what point is a Catholic saved (I am a former RCIA Catholic BTW). Is it upon a confession of faith in Christ, or is it after the initial confession, baptism, and communion?

Be blessed in Christ,
Bill

[Celtic moon]

Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation, because such is the teaching of Jesus Christ. What Our Lord demands is ``faith that worketh by charity .'' (Gal. 5 :6). Read Matthew 25:31-46, which describes the Last Judgment as being based on works of charity. The first and greatest commandment, as given by Our Lord Himself, is to love the Lord God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength; and the second great commandment is to love one's neighbor as oneself. (Mark 12:30-31). When the rich young man asked Our Lord what he must do to gain eternal life, Our Lord answered: ``Keep the commandments.'' (Matt. 19:17). Thus, although faith is the beginning, it is not the complete fulfillment of the will of God. Nowhere in the Bible is it written that faith alone justifies. When St. Paul wrote, ``For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law,'' he was referring to works peculiar to the old Jewish Law, and he cited circumcision as an example.

maybe a review of Hebrews 6 would aid your discussion : if you look at the first principles of the Doctrine of Christ.

1st principle is repentence from Dead Works
2nd Principle is Trust in the Lord (Faith)

we are JUSTIFIEDthrough the blood of the Lamb,Salvation being only the beginning, God’s way being by bringing believers to spiritual maturity and strength through building the Word of God into our lives.

Circumcision was a GOOD WORK, because it was a requirement of God in the OT, but it has become a DEAD WORK, because it has no spiritual significance in the NT.

No act or process can justify us before God. I’m only ever acceptable to God because of the work of Jesus on the cross. Any "work" we do has to be from the Love of the Lord because we love Him with all our heart, our soul, our mind. The principle goes back to the first commandment. The motive of my heart will determine whether my works are good or dead. The rich young man being a biblical example of this ...

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”

Fear God and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil" Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

Blessings

[Joe Gofish]

Nothing like quoting scripture out of context, huh, Joe?

If we read the entire book of James, he is not speaking of whether works are required for salvation. He is speaking of the quality of faith we must have to be saved. Look at the contrast: You believe that God is one. Good. The demons also believe this... and shudder.

The demons know of God, believe that He is one, but their response is to live in fear and rebellion.

It would seem that James is writing to people for whom their response to believing in God is apathy, as though mere acknowledgement of existance is sufficient.

James' point, then, is that our faith must be of such a quality that it results in works that reflect true belief.

Thus, faith that is of such a quality as to not produce works, is meaningless. It is like demon's faith.

On the other hand, faith that is of such a quality as to produce works consistent with our faith, such as Rahab acting in faith, such a faith is of the quality that we receive salvation.

Michael

I did not take any thing out of context I just posted a bible verse.
Here are some more
Works have merit Phil2:12, 2 Cor 5:10, Rom 2:6 Matt 25:32-46 Gal 6:6-10.
Paul disiplines himself to avoid losing salvation 1Cor9:27,
Earning forgiveness Jas 5:20

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Judas... went and hanged himself. Jesus said "Go and do likewise"

I'm just posting a bible verse! C'mon Joe, is it not obvious that bible verses have context?!

[Steadfastlove]

Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation, because such is the teaching of Jesus Christ. What Our Lord demands is ``faith that worketh by charity .'' (Gal. 5 :6). Read Matthew 25:31-46, which describes the Last Judgment as being based on works of charity. The first and greatest commandment, as given by Our Lord Himself, is to love the Lord God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength; and the second great commandment is to love one's neighbor as oneself. (Mark 12:30-31). When the rich young man asked Our Lord what he must do to gain eternal life, Our Lord answered: ``Keep the commandments.'' (Matt. 19:17). Thus, although faith is the beginning, it is not the complete fulfillment of the will of God. Nowhere in the Bible is it written that faith alone justifies. When St. Paul wrote, ``For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law,'' he was referring to works peculiar to the old Jewish Law, and he cited circumcision as an example.

Ephesians 2



1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Mal !]

All the bulls and sheep slaughtered through the Old Testament and the keeping of hundreds of ceremonial Laws did not cleanse the conscience. How then do you expect to cleanse your conscience with rhetoric, ceremonies and religious practices?

Its only by faith in the sacrifice that God provided in His Son Jesus, that we can be justified and forgiven.

This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. Heb 9:9

13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, b so that we may serve the living God! Heb 9:13 & 14

[Mal !]

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Preach it Sistah !!