The Assurance of the Spirit

[Cow Poke]

I think the thing about being argued into the Kingdom works both ways. If you want to say you can be argued out, then we could just as well say someone can be loved into the Kingdom and loved out of it as well.

But I'm not claiming that.

There can be very loving people outside of Christianity.

Sure, and cults thrive on that.

While I think we need to realize the role of the Holy Spirit, we have no control over that aspect.

And if we did, He wouldn't be sovereign. But we can PRAY for the Spirit's guidance, influence, power, etc....

My thinking is we simply do the part we have been instructed to do and trust God to do what He has said He will do. There's a quote I understand to be attributed to Saint Augustine that says to pray as if everything depended on God. Work as if it all depended on you.

Yes, I cite that quote often... and I think the "prayer" part is often underplayed or missing.

[Apologiaphoenix]

But I'm not claiming that.



Sure, and cults thrive on that.



And if we did, He wouldn't be sovereign. But we can PRAY for the Spirit's guidance, influence, power, etc....



Yes, I cite that quote often... and I think the "prayer" part is often underplayed or missing.

I really have no problem with any of this. I would say prayer is an area I struggle with, but I do have a mentor who helps me.

[Cow Poke]

I really have no problem with any of this. I would say prayer is an area I struggle with, but I do have a mentor who helps me.

So I believe we would make a good team, AP.... I'm nowhere near as good at apologetics as you are, yet the Lord seems to have seen fit to use me to win people to Christ, and they seem to "stick". I have no doubt, however, that they could be "apologied" beyond my ability or experience!

[Apologiaphoenix]

So I believe we would make a good team, AP.... I'm nowhere near as good at apologetics as you are, yet the Lord seems to have seen fit to use me to win people to Christ, and they seem to "stick". I have no doubt, however, that they could be "apologied" beyond my ability or experience!

I often say Allie and I make a great team in this way. When we're in public, I say I'm the head and she's the heart. I can go on and on about the facts of the matter and such. Allie meanwhile excels by far in empathy and she can feel the situation in that sense better than I do and provide the necessary balance. (And if she gets too emotionally centered, I provide the balance.)

[Cow Poke]

(And if she gets too emotionally centered, I provide the balance.)

If you get too intellectually centered, does she provide the balance?

[Apologiaphoenix]

If you get too intellectually centered, does she provide the balance?

I thought I had said that above but yes, she sure does.

[Cow Poke]

I thought I had said that above but yes, she sure does.

You did. I was just pickin'.

[whag]

Like I said, Colin G. Kruse breaks it down pretty well. Basically something like a divine, conscience-based confirmation.

Tell me how one divorces a conscience-based confirmation from feeling and emotion.

[Cow Poke]

This, also, comes to mind...

[KingsGambit]

I struggle with this myself because I simply don't have emotional religious experiences the way others seem to. I don't know of any reason why I simply would be lacking the Holy Spirit so I am certainly open to views such as AP's but still need a way to account for the scriptures presented here.

[KingsGambit]

One other thing I'd like to add is that I have severe OCD and I've worked out with a Christian psychologist that I need to not conclude that everything I feel is really from the Holy Spirit. I can't speak as to people who don't have it. But in the past I had compulsions to do things like give all my money to the poor when I wouldn't have ended up being able to take care of myself and other things that don't logically make sense.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Remember, that's really CDO that you have.

[fm93]

I struggle with this myself because I simply don't have emotional religious experiences the way others seem to. I don't know of any reason why I simply would be lacking the Holy Spirit so I am certainly open to views such as AP's but still need a way to account for the scriptures presented here.

Back in my early/mid teenage years, there was a time when I thought I should be having some emotional religious experience (because that's what I thought certain passages meant), and I damn near drove myself into an anxiety-riddled nervous breakdown because of it. I kid you not, I was on the verge of tears every night praying to God for some sign or word, or at least some explanation of why nothing seemed to be happening.

[Apologiaphoenix]

I can believe that. I see too many people making really really stupid decisions (Have an affair, leave their spouse, etc.) because of an experience that they had and they are sure this is what God wants them to do. I have met too many who are wondering why they don't hear the voice of God and this listening for the voice of God distracts us from Scripture and puts us in a position to set our own experiences up as the authority.