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Thread: 37818: Three persons, one God

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pentecost View Post
    You're saying the Jesus was created? And part of that is that Jesus was created in the spiritual form that man would take? Am I misunderstanding you? Will you please clarify?
    Noting the passage: Colossians 1:15-21

    “And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together


    Not saying that at all. If Christ were the “first-created,” the Greek word would have been protoktisis. Better said on this part of scripture: The Greek word prototokos, is translated as being the "firstborn". My understanding is that word takes on a couple of meanings away from "first created". The psalmist gives a description of David as being the firstborn. The Lord said of him, "I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth (Psalm 89:27). So in David's case - comes with authority, referring to the rights and authority of a person, because David was considered to be the youngest, correct? So if this is correct, I had asked the question where does this put Adam? Genesis 1, gives the account of the beginning of mankind "created in the image" spiritually and then in Genesis 2, was the actual physical form of mankind. Like the Son - Jesus was “firstborn of all creation” spiritually (The Word - the wisdom of God, as in John 1) and then became Flesh - physically born from a woman.

    Many things have been written along the lines of Colossians 1:15-21.

    Continuing with Genesis 12, God had called out to Abraham and then commanded him to leave (Harran), then we read later in Genesis (Genesis 15), that the "word" of Lord "came" to Abraham, this is different then "calling out" vs. the "word" came, then came the actual physical appearance in Genesis 18, " The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre". Again, each occasion is a build up to the actual "physical" appearance. Also, this is viewed in Exodus with Moses. At the beginning, God called out Moses, "God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” and as the passages in Exodus continue - scripture builds up toward Moses asking, “Now show me your glory.” 19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence."

    Was John 1 referring to this part? That is the leading up until the actual "physical" appearance becoming present. Re-reading John 1, "9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.


    and as with Moses _ We saw God's Glory passing .....14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pentecost View Post
    You're saying the Jesus was created? And part of that is that Jesus was created in the spiritual form that man would take? Am I misunderstanding you? Will you please clarify?
    You know that there have been some conflict with this part in scripture. Even speaking about revelations - Revelation 3:14 King James Version (KJV) 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

  3. #13
    tWebber Pentecost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta View Post
    You know that there have been some conflict with this part in scripture. Even speaking about revelations - Revelation 3:14 King James Version (KJV) 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
    The beginning of the creation of God =/= first thing created, it means the start of creation. Jesus started creation = Jesus created; not that he was created.
    “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Matthew 3:11

  4. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  5. #14
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pentecost View Post
    The beginning of the creation of God =/= first thing created, it means the start of creation. Jesus started creation = Jesus created; not that he was created.
    It is important to note, in the incarnation and resurrection of Jesus Christ He is in fact the beginning of the New Heaven and Earth (John 1:3; Romans 8:21-29; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5; Revelation 21:1).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  6. Amen Pentecost amen'd this post.
  7. #15
    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta View Post
    You know that there have been some conflict with this part in scripture. Even speaking about revelations - Revelation 3:14 King James Version (KJV) 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
    Your posts seem to be doing more obfuscation than clarification as to what you believe. Can you answer the question of your belief openly and clearly?
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  8. #16
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Your posts seem to be doing more obfuscation than clarification as to what you believe. Can you answer the question of your belief openly and clearly?
    How openly can I make it? What clarifications do you need? Are you referring to the post on "First Born" or "First Created"? As I pointed out, there have been conflicting issues with those two terms. John 1 addressed the fact that Jesus is the "word" of God made flesh. The apostle Paul is expanding that thought in Colossians 1:15-21, "And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation." (the verb "create" - Hebrew bara - always has God for its subject). The totality of what exists (expressed by the formula "the heavens and the earth") depends on the One who gives it being.

    Being the First Born doesn't necessarily mean that Christ was created, as in Adam and Eve, who were "created" in the image of God. (Genesis 1: 27 "So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.) Not like terms - although it does state "in the image" as in, He (Christ) is the image of the invisible God. Defining what is "created" and what is "born" - If Christ were the “first-created,” the Greek word would have been protoktisis. Better said on this part of scripture: The Greek word prototokos, is translated as being the "firstborn".

    To tension up the conversation, you would have to bring in scriptural examples of passages to express the terms in there understanding. Due to the fact that “firstborn” is an expression of rank, or preeminence and not necessarily of the oldest child, see Genesis 48:17-20, So he put Ephraim ahead of Manasseh.

    Whatever does this have to do with my belief - openingly?
    Last edited by Marta; 05-25-2017 at 08:53 AM.

  9. #17
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pentecost View Post
    The beginning of the creation of God =/= first thing created, it means the start of creation. Jesus started creation = Jesus created; not that he was created.
    See post to Jedidiah - to confirm that we share the same beliefs

  10. #18
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta View Post
    Are you saying that the Western approach on the theology of the Trinity entails tritheism (a belief in three gods) where as, the Eastern approach the same theology as being more unified?
    Not at all. I'm saying that the idea that all three persons are unbegotten isn't necessarily tritheism. That accusation assumes that the distinction between unbegotten, begotten, and proceeding is the primary thing that characterizes the distinction among the persons, so that making the Father the source of the other two is what defines their unity. 37818 may well characterize the distinction and unity differently. You'd need to look at his theology more broadly before judging it. He might even be wrong without necessarily being tritheist.
    Last edited by hedrick; 05-26-2017 at 12:43 AM.

  11. #19
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedrick View Post
    Not at all. I'm saying that the idea that all three persons are unbegotten isn't necessarily tritheism. That accusation assumes that the distinction between unbegotten, begotten, and proceeding is the primary thing that characterizes the distinction among the persons, so that making the Father the source of the other two is what defines their unity. 37818 may well characterize the distinction and unity differently. You'd need to look at his theology more broadly before judging it. He might even be wrong without necessarily being tritheist.
    II. THE REVELATION OF GOD AS TRINITY

    The Father revealed by the Son


    This article is the best explanation to how and what I believe. It is my stamp of faith because I have never know any other way to understand the unity. That being said, in what I believe, it is a "base" or a "ground" and everything from that base flows from it. In what "perhaps" that you believe in (again) has a origin - a start/beginning of the knowledge of God through his Son, and from that belief comes (again) all wisdom that flows from it (like a river) because the realization of who God is, "reveals" itself from within us - our hearts (mind and soul). Just as Jesus had expressed in a "beautiful" passage, "John 4:13Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again. 14But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.”


    There are comparisons that can be assimilated from Exodus, but again, I believe (like everyone else) that it was a foreshadow of making the Son (who was not visible) become visible - later. Using those example from Genesis - each step of communications with Abraham lead to the visible God. The best passage happened with Moses, "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. .... Then Moses said, "I pray You, show me Your glory!" Exodus 33:23. The passage from John express the Glory of God - "14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth"

    John concluded it - bringing that understanding of what God's glory is! Just as the people "asked" Jesus, "What is the work of God?" What does God require of us? (basically - in the same breath as Micah's passage) The whole sum of this is that! What is God requiring out of us - what is the work of God! To believe! And - as Micah's passage tell us, "He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."

  12. #20
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta View Post
    II. THE REVELATION OF GOD AS TRINITY

    The Father revealed by the Son


    This article is the best explanation to how and what I believe. It is my stamp of faith because I have never know any other way to understand the unity. That being said, in what I believe, it is a "base" or a "ground" and everything from that base flows from it. In what "perhaps" that you believe in (again) has a origin - a start/beginning of the knowledge of God through his Son, and from that belief comes (again) all wisdom that flows from it (like a river) because the realization of who God is, "reveals" itself from within us - our hearts (mind and soul). Just as Jesus had expressed in a "beautiful" passage, "John 4:13Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again. 14But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.”


    There are comparisons that can be assimilated from Exodus, but again, I believe (like everyone else) that it was a foreshadow of making the Son (who was not visible) become visible - later. Using those example from Genesis - each step of communications with Abraham lead to the visible God. The best passage happened with Moses, "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. .... Then Moses said, "I pray You, show me Your glory!" Exodus 33:23. The passage from John express the Glory of God - "14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth"

    John concluded it - bringing that understanding of what God's glory is! Just as the people "asked" Jesus, "What is the work of God?" What does God require of us? (basically - in the same breath as Micah's passage) The whole sum of this is that! What is God requiring out of us - what is the work of God! To believe! And - as Micah's passage tell us, "He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."
    Also:
    John 1:9-10,
    . . . [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. . . .

    Hebrews 1:3,
    . . . Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; . . .

    Colossians 1:15,
    . . . Who is the image of the invisible . . .
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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