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Faith Without Reason (A Response to Richard Dawkins, et al)

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  • Originally posted by ShrimpMaster View Post
    The immediate experience of the Holy Spirit would be a self-authenticating experience. To say that a Christian's experience and a Mormon's experience is the same is a misunderstanding of the model. The claim would not be that I can prove the Mormon's experience as false. The claim is that citing other religions that claim a false experience does not invalidate the existence of a genuine experience of God.
    Your correct, neither experience would invalidate the other, but both would 'self authenticating' experiences for their belief, and highly anecdotal in nature, and not verifiably as valid nor any different from an outside observer.

    The concept may be familiar to many religions (not all), but regeneration would only occur to individuals who have a genuine experience of the Holy Spirit. Also, deconversion would do nothing to say that individuals cannot come to eventually reject the Holy Spirit. Not only that, but these individuals could not have had a genuine experience to begin with.
    This represents a long standing problem of the judgment as to whose experience is genuine and whose is not. regeneration remains to anecdotal to make any judgment as to its validity across many different beliefs.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Shunyadragon, I think you are correct in your assessment, but remember that Plantinga's project is to make a defensible account of belief in God as properly basic. It isn't meant to be a proof for Christian theism. I think if I wanted to show defeaters for Mormonism, Islam, etc... I could do that, but it would be on other grounds than the basicality of the belief in God. Properly basic beliefs are not indefeasible. The point is that you cannot dismiss a properly basic belief without also showing it to be false (i.e. attacking the truth of the belief). Thanks

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ShrimpMaster View Post
        Shunyadragon, I think you are correct in your assessment, but remember that Plantinga's project is to make a defensible account of belief in God as properly basic. It isn't meant to be a proof for Christian theism. I think if I wanted to show defeaters for Mormonism, Islam, etc... I could do that, but it would be on other grounds than the basicality of the belief in God. Properly basic beliefs are not indefeasible. The point is that you cannot dismiss a properly basic belief without also showing it to be false (i.e. attacking the truth of the belief). Thanks
        The disagreement is whether specific religious experiences such as you describe are proposed by Plantinga as necessary for a belief being 'properly basic.'
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          The disagreement is whether specific religious experiences such as you describe are proposed by Plantinga as necessary for a belief being 'properly basic.'
          I don't think so. Religious experience is not be the basis for the belief in God as properly basic. The discussion whag and I were having was around whether someone is regenerated and what constitutes regeneration. Hard questions to answer. Thanks

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ShrimpMaster View Post
            I don't think so. Religious experience is not be the basis for the belief in God as properly basic. The discussion whag and I were having was around whether someone is regenerated and what constitutes regeneration. Hard questions to answer. Thanks
            These are hard questions.

            I believe if you debate the issue of 'regeneration' and what it constitutes you will both be butting your heads against either side of a wall, where one does not believe in such experience as genuine, and the other does. I on the other hand look at 'regeneration' from different perspectives. as I am a Theist and view 'regeneration' from the perspective of a spiritual change or transformation in the individual. This does not mean it is a witness of a true spiritual reality, but it in reality is a change within the individual.

            In Buddhism it is a satori or enlightenment. There may be 'little satori, or the 'big satori.' It is often described as "seeing into one's true nature."

            The Baha'i Faith views 'regeneration' from two perspectives. The first is the 'regeneration' of the world through the power of the Revelation from God. This is the regeneration that results in a change and transformation of the world that most people may not be aware of as a spiritual transformation. The second is the spiritual awakening or transformation of the individual.

            Actual there are probably views of 'regeneration' in any belief system including atheism and agnosticism as the realization of the truth and meaningful realization of that belief that results in the 'regeneration.' This is where arguments for the validity of 'regeneration' breaks down between people who believe radically different.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Regeneration implies that something is a way that it is not supposed to be. The Baha'i faith has no doctrine concerning original sin or the fallen state of humanity, therefore, regeneration is not a word that applies to the Baha'i faith.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ShrimpMaster View Post
                Regeneration implies that something is a way that it is not supposed to be. The Baha'i faith has no doctrine concerning original sin or the fallen state of humanity, therefore, regeneration is not a word that applies to the Baha'i faith.
                I believe this an anecdotal assertion based on a sense of exclusiveness, and not by the definition of 'regeneration.' I do not believe that Plantinga makes this distinction when defining what is properly basic.

                As I said before, your in trouble with a dialog with anyone who does not believe specifically as you do concerning the meaning of regeneration. It will be a fruitless frustrating exercise if you assume this exclusiveness of your view.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  I believe this an anecdotal assertion based on a sense of exclusiveness, and not by the definition of 'regeneration.' I do not believe that Plantinga makes this distinction when defining what is properly basic.

                  As I said before, your in trouble with a dialog with anyone who does not believe specifically as you do concerning the meaning of regeneration. It will be a fruitless frustrating exercise if you assume this exclusiveness of your view.
                  I don't think I need to argue over the meaning of regeneration with you. If you are having trouble with me, then go find a dictionary.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ShrimpMaster View Post
                    I don't think I need to argue over the meaning of regeneration with you. If you are having trouble with me, then go find a dictionary.
                    No problem . . .

                    Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/regeneration



                    re•gen•er•a•tion
                    (rɪˌdʒɛn əˈreɪ ʃən)

                    n.
                    1. the act of regenerating or the state of being regenerated.

                    2. the regrowth of a lost or injured part of the body.

                    3. spiritual rebirth; religious revival.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Each religion or belief system may define may define regeneration in terms of their own belief, but this is not effectively meaningful outside that particular belief system.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jichard View Post
                      Plantinga is one of my favorite philosophers and is a large figure in the field. However, I disagree with the claim that he "is the leading epistemologist that is alive today among secular and non-secular epistemologists". He's retired, after all. And in any event, people like Alvin Goldman, Laurence Bonjour, and Ernest Sosa are
                      [arguably bigger].
                      And I've never heard of any of the three. Which may prove only my ignorance, but it does argue against your denigration of Plantinga.
                      For the record, I have never liked Plantinga, but again that may only exhibit my ignorance of and bias against Presuppositionalism.
                      Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

                      Comment


                      • Please note:
                        I find myself affixing "Amen" to a lot of posts. This signifies neither assent nor approval in many cases, consider it equivalent to "Popcorn" = "Yes, I'm listening, tell me more!" (Probably incomprehensible to most humans in regards to deep philosophic discussion of epistemology, but I never said I'm not crazy.)
                        The absence of an "Amen" on Shuny's posts does not betoken disagreement or dislike. I am simply studiously avoiding reading anything he wrote.
                        Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          I suspect it is an age thing - early signs of dementia?
                          I could not reason with him in 2007. He's just obstinate and wrong-headed.
                          Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

                          Comment


                          • Amend my #161 above now that I have studiously read all Shuny's posts through #85 where he affirmed his mental competency.
                            No change needed for my #162. I am right and Seer and Adrift are wrong. Shuny is no worse than he ever was. He's just contrary, a skeptic who won't admit being a skeptic.
                            Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

                            Comment

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