In What Way are the Eastern Orthodox Churches different from Roman Catholic churches?

[Piebald]

Yet another in a series of posts to melt away Hamster's ignorance! The title pretty much says it all.

I would also like to add a couple small questions: What objections to the Orthodox use of Icons Do You Have?

As with "Why not Roman Catholicism?" Please dont' be vitriolic.

Another question: Why don't the Greek Orthodox consider the Protestants Christians/Saved? I am kind of "ecumenical," I guess, and this makes me very sad.

[Ryokan]

Yet another in a series of posts to melt away Hamster's ignorance! The title pretty much says it all.

I would also like to add a couple small questions: What objections to the Orthodox use of Icons Do You Have?

As with "Why not Roman Catholicism?" Please dont' be vitriolic.

Another question: Why don't the Greek Orthodox consider the Protestants Christians/Saved? I am kind of "ecumenical," I guess, and this makes me very sad.

Though not Catechumen yet, I attend an Orthodox Church, and will do the best I can. The Orthodox have a different view of salvation, a different view of ecclesiastical authority, a different view of the priesthood, a different view of the trinity, a different view of original sin, and a different view of spiritual knowledge than the RCC. Jezz, I am sure, will hit on all these points with far greater accuracy than I, so I will just give you the highlights.
THe Orthodox Church view on salvation is not penal substitutionary, or at least not only penal substitutionary. They ultimately view it as a kind of mystery that can be only partially illuminated by our theories. But, though we may never understand how our salvation fully works, we do know what God would have us do to recieve it. The EOC is a big conglorperation of bishops who are all, at least in theory, equal. So, there is no central authority like the pope, just the authority of the Church and its traditions collectively. Priests can marry, though Bishops or monks can't. The Orthodox do not accept the filloque, and they have a few more, subtler difference aside. Original sin is more like a spiritual disease adam inflicted on us than a crime we are held guilty of, and Christs death removes that illness from us. Finally, the RCC likes everything rational and logically consistent. The EOC is mystical and thinks God is to big to try to box in like that. Or so I understand it.

As far as Protestants salvation? Well, the Orthodox are NOT ecumenical. They think they are right, and everyone else is varying degrees of wrong. And they don't pretend to know what degree of right doctrine, or what mitigating circumstance God uses to determine who gets saved and who doesn't. So they say we are the true Church. If you actually follow what we preach, you'll get into heaven. If you don't, well, we don't know. But as far as specifics go, well, the only people in the Church or outside who get the Church's you are going to heaven seal are saints. As far as personal opinions go, given Jesus died for men, God is all loving, merciful, and just, most Orthodox individual don't think Protestants, or my experience even Buddhist are going to hell if they follow Jesus in their hearts and honestly believe what they are currently doing is right. Its people who commit ergregious sin without the desire, much less the means, to repent and or people who reject the church not out of confused logic but instead convience or greed or whatever that are in trouble. But the Church takes no position.

[furay]

1. Papacy - The Orthodox do not believe the Pope has universal jurisdiction over all the Bishops. They do not hold to Papal infallibility as well.

2. Orthodox have 7 Ecumenical Councils. The Catholic Church has a bunch more.

3. Filioque - Orthodox reject this addition to the Credo. "The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, durnit!"

4. They don't believe in the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos, because to them it's unnecessary. In their eyes the Western viewpoint of Original Sin is flawed.

5. They allow contraception. Boo-urns!

6. They allow divorce and re-marriage. Double Boo-urns!

7. They use leavened bread, Catholics use unleavened - therefore all Orthodox are going to hell!!!
Just kidding.

There's a bunch more that I'm missing, some obvious ones I'm sure. But I am dog-tired and that's all I can think of for now.

[Blake Reas]

They also do not have a fanatical obsession with Christ death like Protestants and Catholics do. The Orthodox view is one of Christus Victor.

By the way I attend an Eastern Orthodox Church now, and am considering becoming a catchumen.
The Recovering Protestant,
Blake

[Blake Reas]

A good book to read would be Timoth Ware's book The Orthodox Church. I just finished it and I could not put it down, he is a great writer.

Blake

[Piebald]

1. Papacy - The Orthodox do not believe the Pope has universal jurisdiction over all the Bishops. They do not hold to Papal infallibility as well.

2. Orthodox have 7 Ecumenical Councils. The Catholic Church has a bunch more.

3. Filioque - Orthodox reject this addition to the Credo. "The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, durnit!"

4. They don't believe in the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos, because to them it's unnecessary. In their eyes the Western viewpoint of Original Sin is flawed.

5. They allow contraception. Boo-urns!

6. They allow divorce and re-marriage. Double Boo-urns!

7. They use leavened bread, Catholics use unleavened - therefore all Orthodox are going to hell!!!
Just kidding.

There's a bunch more that I'm missing, some obvious ones I'm sure. But I am dog-tired and that's all I can think of for now.

Do they allow divorce/re-marriage frivolously? Can you expand on that? Of course you may be of the opinion that all divorce/re-marriage is frivolous.

What does their canon look like? What is their view of scripture?

Everyone, thanks for the information. Blake, I'm going to check out that book.

[Trinitarian]

The Orthodox Priests can also be married, though there are celibate orders within the church.

There isn't a super-structural hierarchy among the orthodox bishops which is the primary structural difference between them and the RCC. All the varying local congregations are unified by virtue of the bishops being in communion with one another.

As for the Orthodox view of the salvation of non-Orthodox Christians, positions differ greatly within the church. Their general consensus is something like the following: "There is no salvation outside the church. We know where the church is, it is the Orthodox Church." However MANY Orthodox believers, priests, theologians and bishops would also add: "However, though we know where the church is and that there is no salvation outside the church, we don't necessarily know where the church ISN'T." So, they leave open the possibility that there could be legitimate churches outside of the Orthodox communion, though at best it is only a possibility.

I've encountered Orthodox priests and Christians who are very open and consider other Christians that hold to the fundamental tenets of orthodox (small 'o') Christianity to be brothers and sisters. In some cases this depends on the kind of Orthodox church in question (yes, there are different kinds, sometimes almost looking like denominations...). Greek and Russian Orthodox tend to be a bit more xenophobic and ethnocentric in their orientation whcih often leads to a more exclusive view of the church (not always, of course). Other Eastern Orthodox groups are often more open. At least that's been my experience.

I flirted with Orthodoxy for a while in college, but a few key things kept me from becoming Orthodos: their hierarchical view of the Father in the Trinity, the corresponding hierarchy of the bishop in the church, and the Orthodox Church's ethnocentricism, particularly the way the Orthodox church has conducted itself in the Balkans which is deplorable.

Nevertheless I retain high regard for that tradition and Orhodox theologians like John Zizioulas, Kallisos Ware and others have been a great source of learning for me and their views have shaped my own on many theological points.

[furay]

Do they allow divorce/re-marriage frivolously? Can you expand on that? Of course you may be of the opinion that all divorce/re-marriage is frivolous.

Yeah, any divorce and remarriage is frivolous in my opinion. I should note, however, that Orthodox have a very low divorce rate, compared with say Protestantism. So while they allow you to divorce and then remarry a couple of times, it's not like many of them do. That's commendable.

What does their canon look like? What is their view of scripture?

Orthodox canon is similar to the Catholic canon except they include
3 Esdras (they call it 1 Esdras), 3 (and sometimes 4) Maccabees, the Prayer of Manassas (beautiful!), they also have an extra Psalm. Their view of Scripture is pretty similar to the Catholic Church's... more or less.

If you want, I could mail you my paperback copy of the Orthodox Church by Bishop KALLISTOS. It's a pretty good book and anyone who's interested in Orthodoxy should read it. Psst, but you should stay with the Catholic Church.

[CounterReformer]

The Orthodox Priests can also be married, though there are celibate orders within the church.

This in it's self is misleading. Like the Eastern Rite Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox allow already married men into the Priesthood so long as sexual relations between the Husband and Wife ceases upon ordination. Priests who were celebate after entering into Holy Orders may not get married. All Married Priests may not be elevated to the rank of Bishop. All Bishops in the East come from either celebate priests or from the religious orders.

[Trinitarian]

This in it's self is misleading. Like the Eastern Rite Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox allow already married men into the Priesthood so long as sexual relations between the Husband and Wife ceases upon ordination. Priests who were celebate after entering into Holy Orders may not get married. All Married Priests may not be elevated to the rank of Bishop. All Bishops in the East come from either celebate priests or from the religious orders.

EO priests who are married can't have sex after ordination? Do you have any documentation for this? Because I've met Orthodox Priests who are married...and that doesn't seem to be the understanding that they have.

[Jezz]

Hi Hamster!

I'm sorry that I missed this thread! I will give it my best! I only plan to answer your post briefly, as most of the questions have been answered. I might chip in a few bits and pieces later in response to other posts.

The brief answer to your overall question: "What's the difference between Orthodox and Roman Catholic?" is this: "Orthodoxy is what Roman Catholicism used to be..."

Another question: Why don't the Greek Orthodox consider the Protestants Christians/Saved? I am kind of "ecumenical," I guess, and this makes me very sad.

The short answer is because the Orthodox do not believe that salvation is a passed event. It is an ongoing process, which isn't completed this side of death. Thus, noone still living - Protestant or Orthodox - is saved.

The Orthodox are ecumenical - btw. One of the official titles of the Patriarch of Constantinople is also called the Ecumenical Patriarch.

[Jezz]

Do they allow divorce/re-marriage frivolously? Can you expand on that? Of course you may be of the opinion that all divorce/re-marriage is frivolous.

We take divorce/remarriage very seriously. It is certainly not frivolous. However, we also recognise the need to accomodate human weakness and frailty.

Someone who is considering being remarried ought first to be counselled as to seriously other options - eg, reconciliation, or celibacy. Ideally a divorcee should remain single. However, especially in times where there are mitigating circumstances (eg, infidelity by the other party), the Church will grant permission to marry a second time, and at a stretch even a third. However, such marriages are regarded as special dispensations and are recognised by the Church as being a deviation from the ideal. The wedding ceremony is different from the ceremony for a couple being married for the first time (more solemn), and it begins with prayers asking for forgiveness.

What does their canon look like? What is their view of scripture?

As furay pointed out, their OT is very similar to the RCC's, but with a couple of extra books. One thing that he didn't mention is that the Orthodox distinguish the authority of the OT "apocrypha" - it is considered less authoritative than the other OT books. In this, the Orthodox are actually not that much different from, say, what Luther and other reformers taught about the apocrypha (as opposed to later Protestants who removed them altogether).

Everyone, thanks for the information. Blake, I'm going to check out that book.

Substantial parts of that book are available online. You can find them here and here. The Father Alexander site where these are found has lots of other good articles on it too.

Other online articles can be found on the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese web site (here) and the Orthodox Church of America (here). In particular, the series by Fr Thomas Hopko on the OCA site here. That should be enough to keep you going...

I can also highly recommend Clark Carlton's series "The Faith". There are four books entitles The Faith, The Way, The Truth and The Life. They discuss Orthodoxy, Protestantism v Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism v Orthodoxy and Orthodox view of salvation respectively. The Way and The Truth are of course going to be by their very nature polemical, but I think that while Carlton pulls no punches and is not afraid to call a spade a spade, he is nevertheless fair.

If it is specifically differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism that you are interested in, the Truth is highly recommended - it covers the main differences between the two churches in some depth. I agree that sometimes the differences between churches are hard to understand, which is why this book is good - unlike others, it focuses specifically on these differences. Given the topic of this thread, I think that you would find this book extremely enlightening.

[Jezz]

EO priests who are married can't have sex after ordination? Do you have any documentation for this? Because I've met Orthodox Priests who are married...and that doesn't seem to be the understanding that they have.

I think that CounterReformer got his facts a bit mixed up here. There are rules as to when a priest is allowed to have relations with his wife (he must remain celibate for some period - I'm not exactly sure how long - before celebrating a Divine Liturgy), but he is not completely prohibited.

Actually, if memory serves me correctly I think the reason that clerical celibacy became the norm in the West was because the length of time that one must remain celibate before Divine Liturgy became so long (a week, perhaps?) that basically it meant they were forced to be continually celibate. This seems to be the position that CounterReformer is coming from.

[Paul Brand]

Question for the Orthodox,

In my home city, there is a Ukrainian, Greek, Romanian, and Serbian Orthodox churches. If I was interested in visiting one of these churches, which one should I try? Are there any language barriers during the services?

Like a few others, I'm interested in Orthodoxy, and I feel quite comfortable with much of EO theology (though not entirely comfortable yet). I think I would lean more towards EO than RCC. I'm currently an evangelical Anabaptist (i.e. Mennonite Brethren). I'm a bit uncomfortable with attending an ethno-centric church, but perhaps I shouldn't complain because my own church is somewhat ethno-centric.

[Darth Executor]

Question for the Orthodox,

In my home city, there is a Ukrainian, Greek, Romanian, and Serbian Orthodox churches. If I was interested in visiting one of these churches, which one should I try?

An American one.

Are there any language barriers during the services?

Yes, most Orthodox churches are ethnic so the service will likely be in their native language, which is why I suggested finding an American church. Of course, they will still welcome you and most of them will be able to speak English but odds are you won't understand a word of the service.