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Why I am an atheist

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  • Why I am an atheist

    I used to be a Christian. In another thread Papa Zoom asked why I am now an atheist. Re-posting here to continue discussion:

    Basically in 20 years or so as a Christian I never saw any evidence of the supernatural or of a benevolent and interventionist deity:
    Over time I gradually stopped believing in the supernatural for a variety of reasons including:
    - having never witnessed any supernatural occurrences, nor ever encountered convincing evidence that one had occurred
    - being unconvinced that people who claimed God had 'told' them something had actually heard from God since they regularly contradicted each other or reality about what God had told them
    - being disturbed by the amount of evil and suffering in the world, and subsequently considering it highly unlikely that a benevolent and interventionist deity existed
    - being unimpressed by the extent to which different Christian groups could not agree with each other on doctrine or on what the bible said, and thinking that if God existed he'd done a pretty terrible job at informing humans on theology and morality
    Later, the enthusiasm with which the majority of Christians embraced anti-gay views made me re-examine my assumption that Christianity was having a net-positive influence on society:
    When the gay rights debates blew up... That inspired a very rapid reappraisal of my view that Christianity was a morally positive force in society, and inspired me to take a more thoughtful look at history and morality and Christianity's influence on society.
    The view I reached was that Christianity is now more often than not, a barrier to social progress, and its medieval (im)morality does more harm than good in the modern world.
    Last edited by Starlight; 08-01-2015, 08:01 PM.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

  • #2
    oh well...
    Last edited by seer; 08-01-2015, 08:13 PM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      oh well...
      Aren't you the person who pretended that atheists don't exist?
      http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...cret-Believers

      It must be annoying for you to have a person show how that's a lie, by starting a thread explaining why they are an atheist.
      "Instead, we argue, it is necessary to shift the debate from the subject under consideration, instead exposing to public scrutiny the tactics they [denialists] employ and identifying them publicly for what they are."

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jichard View Post
        Aren't you the person who pretended that atheists don't exist?
        http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...cret-Believers

        It must be annoying for you to have a person show how that's a lie, by starting a thread explaining why they are an atheist.
        Ah yes, but seer just knows that deep down Starlight actually believes in a Creator God...he just won't admit it to himself.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Ah yes, but seer just knows that deep down Starlight actually believes in a Creator God...he just won't admit it to himself.
          Reminds me of Paprika's awesome theory that religious belief is genetic. I guess since my parents and grandparents were all Christians, I and my siblings must be Christian even though none of us think we are.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            I used to be a Christian. In another thread Papa Zoom asked why I am now an atheist. Re-posting here to continue discussion:

            Basically in 20 years or so as a Christian I never saw any evidence of the supernatural or of a benevolent and interventionist deity:
            What would constitute evidence? I've heard of plenty from people telling about stories in their lives. My brother lost his son and speaks of the ways God ministered to him (and his wife) through the Holy Spirit with what he calls small miracles. There are reports that in the heart of Islamic countries Muslims are coming to faith in Christ after receiving visions of Him. There are tons of stories of supernatural interventions.


            Later, the enthusiasm with which the majority of Christians embraced anti-gay views made me re-examine my assumption that Christianity was having a net-positive influence on society:
            What does an anti gay view actually look like in your view?

            The view I reached was that Christianity is now more often than not, a barrier to social progress, and its medieval (im)morality does more harm than good in the modern world.
            Christianity has done more for positive social progress than any other worldview. Wilberforce awoke the world to the horrors of the slave trade. Godless nations are not for social progress. They are for the progress of the State. Because of Christians, you have many organizations that both feed and cloth the poor. One man in Scotland (a Christian) did a "one time" thing of feeding the poor in Africa. Now his organization feeds one million a day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI1959D2ugk

            We could fill up pages of a thread showing how Christianity, properly understood and properly applied, has done more positive for humanity than any other worldview.
            Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

            The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
              What would constitute evidence? I've heard of plenty from people telling about stories in their lives. My brother lost his son and speaks of the ways God ministered to him (and his wife) through the Holy Spirit with what he calls small miracles. There are reports that in the heart of Islamic countries Muslims are coming to faith in Christ after receiving visions of Him. There are tons of stories of supernatural interventions.
              Yes, there are tonnes of stories. All of which get proportionally more amazing and incredible the further away and less-trustworthy the source gets. I found the likelihood of a person having encountered a 'miracle' varied according to their credulity and gullibility. All the most astonishing 'miracles' seemed to happen to people who I wouldn't trust to be able to tell a miracle apart from a bar of soap. I never encountered any cases where it was convincing that a miracle of any kind had actually occurred.

              What does an anti gay view actually look like in your view?
              I'm referring to the zeal around the world with which Christians have publicly advocated against laws that gave gay people rights and protected them (eg made homosexual sex legal, civil unions legal, same sex marriage legal, banned workplace discrimination, and made hate-speech against gay people illegal etc), and the zeal with which they have promulgated various negative stereotypes and malicious lies about gay people (such as exaggerated and misleading statistics on the number of sexual relationships gay people have, the frequency with which their relationships fail, their parenting qualities, the frequency with which they abuse children, the degree to which sexuality is chosen and the ease with which it can be changed etc).

              Christianity has done more for positive social progress than any other worldview.
              On the contrary, modern liberal political philosophy has done far more. John Locke and John Stuart Mill between them and their followers created and shaped the entire modern political environment of democratic nation states, that maximize individual freedom, and pass laws based on a utilitarian paradigm of what is best, and protect human rights. Almost everything that is good about our modern world we owe to this strand of utilitarian political philosophy that has shaped it over the past few hundred years.

              Wilberforce awoke the world to the horrors of the slave trade.
              From about the 12th century slavery had vanished from Europe completely. But after the Portuguese began to explore the African coast in the 15th century:
              In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas, granting Afonso V of Portugal the right to reduce any "Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers" to hereditary slavery which legitimized slave trade under Catholic beliefs of that time.

              Christian Europe (and the Christian Americas) went on to become one of the greatest users and abusers of slaves that history has ever seen.

              Eventually they stopped their evil. Should I praise Christianity because the people who stopped the evil were Christians? Or should I condemn Christianity because the people who authorized and perpetrated the evil were Christians?
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #8
                [QUOTE=Papa Zoom;225718]What would constitute evidence? I've heard of plenty from people telling about stories in their lives. My brother lost his son and speaks of the ways God ministered to him (and his wife) through the Holy Spirit with what he calls small miracles. There are reports that in the heart of Islamic countries Muslims are coming to faith in Christ after receiving visions of Him. There are tons of stories of supernatural interventions.

                Tons of anecdotal 'stories' are absolutely no reasonable evidence for the existence of anything.

                Christianity has done more for positive social progress than any other worldview. Wilberforce awoke the world to the horrors of the slave trade. Godless nations are not for social progress. They are for the progress of the State. Because of Christians, you have many organizations that both feed and cloth the poor. One man in Scotland (a Christian) did a "one time" thing of feeding the poor in Africa. Now his organization feeds one million a day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI1959D2ugk
                These claims are stretch of the evidence from a biased position. Like most religions, they have a very mixed human history ranging from very good to horrifically evil.

                We could fill up pages of a thread showing how Christianity, properly understood and properly applied, has done more positive for humanity than any other worldview.
                'Properly understood and properly applied,' is not evidence of anything. This claim could be made for any belief system including atheism.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-01-2015, 10:22 PM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  Yes, there are tonnes of stories. All of which get proportionally more amazing and incredible the further away and less-trustworthy the source gets. I found the likelihood of a person having encountered a 'miracle' varied according to their credulity and gullibility. All the most astonishing 'miracles' seemed to happen to people who I wouldn't trust to be able to tell a miracle apart from a bar of soap. I never encountered any cases where it was convincing that a miracle of any kind had actually occurred.
                  Sure there are lots of stories (personal testimonies) that are perhaps a bit exaggerated. Those get mixed in amongst the legitimate stories.

                  I'm referring to the zeal around the world with which Christians have publicly advocated against laws that gave gay people rights and protected them (eg made homosexual sex legal, civil unions legal, same sex marriage legal, banned workplace discrimination, and made hate-speech against gay people illegal etc), and the zeal with which they have promulgated various negative stereotypes and malicious lies about gay people (such as exaggerated and misleading statistics on the number of sexual relationships gay people have, the frequency with which their relationships fail, their parenting qualities, the frequency with which they abuse children, the degree to which sexuality is chosen and the ease with which it can be changed etc).
                  I think you're actually wrong on this point. As for basic rights, with the exception of maybe some loud mouthed extremists, Christians are for the rights of all. To oppose redefining marriage is not anit-gay. That's just a leftwing talking point IMV. There are plenty of Christian groups that support fair treatment to all and that includes the LGBT community. Beside, Christianity is about Christ, not a few crazies. Personally I opposed the redefining of marriage. But I'm not anti-gay. That's just a label which amounts to name calling AFAIK.

                  On the contrary, modern liberal political philosophy has done far more. John Locke and John Stuart Mill between them and their followers created and shaped the entire modern political environment of democratic nation states, that maximize individual freedom, and pass laws based on a utilitarian paradigm of what is best, and protect human rights. Almost everything that is good about our modern world we owe to this strand of utilitarian political philosophy that has shaped it over the past few hundred years.
                  Locke died in the 1700's and Mill in the 1800's. I'm not sure how modern they are. Other here can address that better than I.

                  From about the 12th century slavery had vanished from Europe completely. But after the Portuguese began to explore the African coast in the 15th century:
                  In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas, granting Afonso V of Portugal the right to reduce any "Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers" to hereditary slavery which legitimized slave trade under Catholic beliefs of that time.

                  Christian Europe (and the Christian Americas) went on to become one of the greatest users and abusers of slaves that history has ever seen
                  Wilberforce - Google him. It wasn't atheism that set the stage for abolition.

                  Eventually they stopped their evil. Should I praise Christianity because the people who stopped the evil were Christians? Or should I condemn Christianity because the people who authorized and perpetrated the evil were Christians?
                  Evil men do evil things in the name of many ideologies. Are you now an atheist? Because much blood has been shed through the vile beliefs of many atheists. For that matter, you'd have to believe in nothing because any belief system can be misused.

                  If you had a special coat that only you wore, and I took it, robbed a bank in that coat, then returned it to you, are guilty because of the coat? People saw that coat on the robber and attributed it to you. Is that a reflection on you?

                  Why should Christ bear the blame because of those who wear his coat poorly? Measure Christianity by Christ and those who truly reflect Him.
                  Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

                  The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
                    What would constitute evidence? I've heard of plenty from people telling about stories in their lives. My brother lost his son and speaks of the ways God ministered to him (and his wife) through the Holy Spirit with what he calls small miracles. There are reports that in the heart of Islamic countries Muslims are coming to faith in Christ after receiving visions of Him. There are tons of stories of supernatural interventions.
                    All of them are anecdotal and culturally biased; e.g. a Hindu will also have many stories of “supernatural intervention”...are they true stories? No doubt the Hindus thinks they are.

                    What does an anti gay view actually look like in your view?
                    It can range from sheer bigotry or fear of what’s different to a religiously-based belief that it’s an abomination to the Lord and deserving of death or at least repression.

                    Christianity has done more for positive social progress than any other worldview. Wilberforce awoke the world to the horrors of the slave trade.
                    The slave trade was instigated by people who were Christian. So were child labour and the denial of women’s rights and colonial repression leading to the death of millions of native peoples.

                    Godless nations are not for social progress. They are for the progress of the State. Because of Christians, you have many organizations that both feed and cloth the poor. One man in Scotland (a Christian) did a "one time" thing of feeding the poor in Africa. Now his organization feeds one million a day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI1959D2ugk
                    The largely “godless nations" of Europe and Scandinavia et al, are the most socially progressive nations on the planet.

                    We could fill up pages of a thread showing how Christianity, properly understood and properly applied, has done more positive for humanity than any other worldview.
                    By “properly understood and properly applied” you presumably don’t mean little things like the Inquisitions, the Salem witch hunts, the Crusades, the decimation of the Native Americans and Australian Aborigines or the Conquistadors of Latin America or the multitude of religious wars etc, etc, etc?
                    Last edited by Tassman; 08-01-2015, 11:11 PM.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I began to stop believing as soon as I was old enough to think for myself when reading the Bible.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You can always tell the secret believers. They protest so hard.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
                          Sure there are lots of stories (personal testimonies) that are perhaps a bit exaggerated. Those get mixed in amongst the legitimate stories.
                          Well there didn't seem to be legitimate stories. Not that I could disentangle from the illegitimate ones at least.

                          I think you're actually wrong on this point. As for basic rights, with the exception of maybe some loud mouthed extremists, Christians are for the rights of all.
                          That's what I believed too. Which is why the strength and widespreadness of the Christian response to the idea of 'gay marriage' totally shocked me. It took me a while to really believe that the vast majority of "Christians" were opposing this worldwide in the name of Christianity.

                          To oppose redefining marriage is not anti-gay.
                          That's like someone two hundred years ago saying "to oppose changing the institution of slavery is not anti-black, what's important to me is not changing our social institutions". But they're wrong because the effects of their views are anti-black regardless of whether a dislike of black people is their reason for holding such views.

                          Being anti-gay marriage is anti gay in much the same way. The reasons for which you hold the anti-gay position are not relevant in determining whether its effects are anti-gay. There's an interesting post discussing that subject here.

                          Or to consider it a totally different way... if something you say gives members of a certain minority group the sudden urge to want to punch you in the face, then what you said is probably anti that minority group whether you realized it or not. From talking to gay people I know, quite a few have to close their eyes, breathe slowly, and say "God, give me patience", to deal with the anger that they feel when they encounter people who are against gay marriage.

                          Fortunately this is largely not an issue anymore, as nearly all developed countries have legalized gay marriage or recognized it as a fundamental right... except Australia whose retarded progress on the issue can be laid firmly at the door of the fact that their current Prime Minister is a Christian. Once again we see Christianity standing for evil and retarding social progress and equality in the modern world.

                          Wilberforce - Google him. It wasn't atheism that set the stage for abolition.
                          A Christian stood up to other Christians to oppose the evil being done by Christians. And you think that proves Christianity is amazing...?

                          Measure Christianity by Christ and those who truly reflect Him.
                          Sure, and I did this for many years, and considered many many Christians to be 'not true Christians'. But there comes a tipping point. Once I was discarding >99% percent of 'Christians' as 'not true Christians' I had to eventually confront the issue of: "At a certain point, the members of a group get to define what that group is and is about. So if >99% of 'Christians' say 'Christianity' is about X, then that is indeed what 'Christianity' in fact is, regardless of what I personally think it ought to be."
                          Last edited by Starlight; 08-01-2015, 11:57 PM.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            The view I reached was that Christianity is now more often than not, a barrier to social progress, and its medieval (im)morality does more harm than good in the modern world.
                            Certainly, there is no separate entity that is God, but people still pray and worship and they do derive some benefit from religious behaviour so I think we need to understand what is going on, from the atheist perspective. It seems to me that people who pray are in fact speaking to themselves; performing a self comforting ritual and those that join in congregations to worship are performing rituals mainly of social cohesion. So there are elements of religious practice that are worthwhile but religion is also irrevocably contaminated with obsolete ideologies that it is unable to escape from because it has canon and a massive organisation for rehearsing them.

                            “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him. Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbour.’ ” The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

                            This is religious barbarism, IS style – even Christians reject this (or do they?). So why do we teach this to our children?

                            So that the little darlings learn to vote the right way.

                            Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority. – Texas GOP 2012 Report of Platform Committee
                            Last edited by firstfloor; 08-02-2015, 03:50 AM.
                            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                            “not all there” - you know who you are

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
                              I think you're actually wrong on this point. As for basic rights, with the exception of maybe some loud mouthed extremists, Christians are for the rights of all.

                              To oppose redefining marriage is not anit-gay. That's just a leftwing talking point IMV. There are plenty of Christian groups that support fair treatment to all and that includes the LGBT community. Beside, Christianity is about Christ, not a few crazies. Personally I opposed the redefining of marriage. But I'm not anti-gay. That's just a label which amounts to name calling AFAIK.
                              Historically and today the reality is very very different. Go back 10 years or so and the majority of Americans (Christians) opposed equal rights for Gays. It remains a fact that to day many still oppose Gays as having equal rights. The response to allowing Gays in Boy Scouts and as Scout leaders. The response in recent years is for churches to form their own scout-like organizations.

                              The Constitution has prevented many efforts by school boards from adding religious based curriculum such as Fundamentalist Creationism.

                              Fortunately Deist views by some founders of our country supported the separation of religion and state, which has taken many years to fully implement.

                              Locke died in the 1700's and Mill in the 1800's. I'm not sure how modern they are. Other here can address that better than I.

                              Wilberforce - Google him. It wasn't atheism that set the stage for abolition.
                              This does not negate the heavy support for slavery by many Christians, and the Biblical support for slavery. The support for slavery was more based on the economic need for slavery than reform proposals to eliminate slavery in some countries like Great Britain where slavery was mostly domestic. In the colonies various forms of slavery persisted well up until the 19th century. Forms of slavery like penal slavery persisted in the USA up into the 20th century.

                              Actually the Baha'i spiritual laws forbidding all forms of slavery and servitude beginning in 1844 became the standard for the modern world. Jewish, Christian and Islamic scriptures la spiritual laws specifically forbidding slavery.

                              Evil men do evil things in the name of many ideologies. Are you now an atheist? Because much blood has been shed through the vile beliefs of many atheists. For that matter, you'd have to believe in nothing because any belief system can be misused.
                              The highlighted reflect your extreme bias. Much blood has been shed by most belief systems in history including and especially Christianity.

                              If you had a special coat that only you wore, and I took it, robbed a bank in that coat, then returned it to you, are guilty because of the coat? People saw that coat on the robber and attributed it to you. Is that a reflection on you?

                              Why should Christ bear the blame because of those who wear his coat poorly? Measure Christianity by Christ and those who truly reflect Him.
                              Is humanity suffering pain, suffering and guilt of sin because of the Original Sin and Fall of Adam and Eve?

                              'Truly reflect' is a mine field or pragmatism.
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-02-2015, 06:23 AM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment

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