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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    It is not an argumentum ad absurdum Tass, it is perfectly true and factual if you are correct. Everything we do - kind or cruel, is determined and perfectly natural.
    The only possible alternative is that nature is NOT governed by consistent physical laws but instead is capricious and inscrutable. In short, an incoherent fantasy universe!

    That does not change the fact that things like war and murder are both determined and completely natural.
    As opposed to a non-natural, capricious and incoherent universe you mean?
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Adam View Post
      Then it's strange that the only person giving you an "Amen" is one of the twelve. And she doesn't get the point--she is not one of the "Dirty Dozen" because of retrograde beliefs like Seer"s but for her ranting style.
      Be careful adrift, he'll add you to his passive aggressive list in which he misuses prayer as a way to make himself feel better about his own failures and behavior. Act and do what he says you should, or else he'll tell on you to God.
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        The only possible alternative is that nature is NOT governed by consistent physical laws but instead is capricious and inscrutable. In short, an incoherent fantasy universe!
        Well no, not quite Tass, it is at least possible, i think, that conscious free willed minds are themselves an emergent property of physical law. After all there is no law that says this can't happen. I can't say where, when or how the mind is set free from the otherwise causal chain of determinism, but I don't think that we can discount the possibility altogether.
        Last edited by JimL; 03-05-2016, 04:35 AM.

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        • The view I reached was that Christianity is now more often than not, a barrier to social progress, and its medieval (im)morality does more harm than good in the modern world.
          Killing off deformed or mentally retarded babies instead of helping them when they're born isn't progress.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            Be careful adrift, he'll add you to his passive aggressive list in which he misuses prayer as a way to make himself feel better about his own failures and behavior. Act and do what he says you should, or else he'll tell on you to God.
            Your Christianity does not extend to any knowledge of the Charismatic Movement, by which we pray (in tongues often) for the benefit of those opposed to us. We don't pray curses upon people, we pray blessings.
            Thanks for at least remembering from years back how in naming the Dirty Dozen I also said that I pray for them daily. (Sadly, I fell out of that habit and don't even remember all the names on my list.)
            I like Adrift and can't think of adding him to my list. I also liked him when he was just a seeker here.
            Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

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            • Originally posted by Adam View Post
              Your Christianity does not extend to any knowledge of the Charismatic Movement, by which we pray (in tongues often) for the benefit of those opposed to us. We don't pray curses upon people, we pray blessings.
              Thanks for at least remembering from years back how in naming the Dirty Dozen I also said that I pray for them daily. (Sadly, I fell out of that habit and don't even remember all the names on my list.)
              I like Adrift and can't think of adding him to my list. I also liked him when he was just a seeker here.
              Interesting because my grandparents were part of the charismatic movement and I don't ever recall them making passive aggressive list, so they could try to shame people, who disagree with them, into agreeing with them.
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Adam View Post
                I also liked him when he was just a seeker here.
                You're thinking of someone else. I would never describe my status as a seeker on this forum.

                Comment


                • Gadfly, maybe? Prober of errors?
                  Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    Well no, not quite Tass, it is at least possible, i think, that conscious free willed minds are themselves an emergent property of physical law.
                    If this “free-will mind” is a property of "physical law", then it would be governed by the same physical laws that apply to every other property of the physical universe including deterministic causation. There’s no reason to think that a “free-will mind” can exist separate from the physical brain or be free from following the known laws of science that determines our actions. In short, there's no reason to think we have free-agency that exists outside those physical laws.

                    After all there is no law that says this can't happen. I can't say where, when or how the mind is set free from the otherwise causal chain of determinism, but I don't think that we can discount the possibility altogether.
                    Yes there IS a law that says this can’t happen. In the physical universe ALL processes, including ALL biological processes...such as the activity of the brain...are governed by the causal laws of physics and chemistry.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Such as the interchangeability of energy and mass, quantum theory of indeterminacy, black holes, String theory--surely no room here for anything out of the ordinary.
                      Back when I was a Physics major and wondering whether Christianity could be true, my upper division class on Modern Physics was quite an eye-opener. I never had any doubts about theism after that (and hardly any doubts about the truth of Christianity either).
                      Last edited by Adam; 03-06-2016, 12:17 AM.
                      Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Adam View Post
                        Such as the interchangeability of energy and mass, quantum theory of indeterminacy, black holes, String theory--surely no room here for anything out of the ordinary.
                        Which of these are NOT governed by the laws of physics and chemistry?
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Adam View Post
                          I was a Physics major and wondering whether Christianity could be true, my upper division class on Modern Physics was quite an eye-opener. I never had any doubts about theism after that (and hardly any doubts about the truth of Christianity either).
                          Please explain why.
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            If this “free-will mind” is a property of "physical law", then it would be governed by the same physical laws that apply to every other property of the physical universe including deterministic causation. There’s no reason to think that a “free-will mind” can exist separate from the physical brain or be free from following the known laws of science that determines our actions. In short, there's no reason to think we have free-agency that exists outside those physical laws.
                            Well, perhaps "property" was the wrong term to use, but there is nothing that says this can not happen. If I am not mistaken, I think that even Daniel Dennet and Sam Harris believe in "free will," that it somehow evolved from out of the deterministic physical laws. I'm just saying that it is possible, and that there is, i believe, differences of opinion on the matter even amongst scholars in the field.


                            Yes there IS a law that says this can’t happen. In the physical universe ALL processes, including ALL biological processes...such as the activity of the brain...are governed by the causal laws of physics and chemistry.
                            I agree, but that doesn't necessarily exclude a break in the system. It may, but it may not.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              The only possible alternative is that nature is NOT governed by consistent physical laws but instead is capricious and inscrutable. In short, an incoherent fantasy universe!
                              So you are making my point, that things like murder, war, rape, etc... are perfectly natural and determined.


                              As opposed to a non-natural, capricious and incoherent universe you mean?
                              No, a universe were men have genuine freedom of the will and are therefore morally responsible.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                So you are making my point, that things like murder, war, rape, etc... are perfectly natural and determined.
                                There’s nothing in the universe that is NOT “natural and determined”. For you to say otherwise is to posit a capricious fantasy universe ungoverned by consistent physical laws and subject to magic and miracles...but we know from personal experience and scientific knowledge that this is not the case.

                                No, a universe were men have genuine freedom of the will
                                You’re referring to ‘libertarian free-will’. This is logically incoherent in a universe governed by coherent physical laws and you've never been able to explain how it could exist.

                                and are therefore morally responsible.
                                We ARE “morally responsible”. We've evolved as social creatures and consequently we’re responsible to our fellow man. It’s instinctive for us to live in community, to nurture our young and acculturate them with community expectations and to penalize any anti-social behaviour which threatens the cohesion of the group. Humans have behaved thus from the very beginning...long before we invented gods.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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