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Penal Substitution

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  • Penal Substitution

    I have held to the Christus Victor model since I've heard of it, and indeed, that was early in my Christian walk. But, as I was having a conversation with an older gentleman than I (about a 30 year difference), and with a younger man than I (about 3 years), I found myself explaining earnestly that just as in the past, the wrath of God was delivered upon Israel by foreign nations, that Jesus took our place and suffered His wrath through to tools that were the Pharisees and Sadducees. I think I finally understand Penal Substitution and accept it in a way that never made sense to me when explained on old TWeb, or by Wikipedia, or even by that fellow who was on Unbelievable a couple years ago.

    It was a very odd time because the words were out before I knew it, and in my mind I said to myself, "I didn't know I even believed in that anymore."
    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

  • #2
    Edited by a Moderator

    Moderated By: Bill the Cat

    Banarama is not within the traditional Christian perspective that this sub-forum requires.

    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 12-26-2015, 05:12 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      shunyadragon,
      re: "Had He desired to save His own life..."


      Actually, according to Matthew 26:39 that was His desire: "...O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me..."

      Comment


      • #4
        I reject this new-fangled Penal Substitution. It is not scriptural. Christus Victor is.
        Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
          I have held to the Christus Victor model since I've heard of it, and indeed, that was early in my Christian walk. But, as I was having a conversation with an older gentleman than I (about a 30 year difference), and with a younger man than I (about 3 years), I found myself explaining earnestly that just as in the past, the wrath of God was delivered upon Israel by foreign nations, that Jesus took our place and suffered His wrath through to tools that were the Pharisees and Sadducees. I think I finally understand Penal Substitution and accept it in a way that never made sense to me when explained on old TWeb, or by Wikipedia, or even by that fellow who was on Unbelievable a couple years ago.

          It was a very odd time because the words were out before I knew it, and in my mind I said to myself, "I didn't know I even believed in that anymore."
          The way penal substitution is sometimes articulated by its adherents is very problematic.
          For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

          Comment


          • #6
            The subject you are addressing is huge since books have been written on it with lots of different conclusions; mostly due to the preconceived ideas of the authors.

            We can work on this together and draw our own most likely alternative interpretation that will be very biblical, consistent and logical.
            To begin with:

            During the time of Christ, the Jewish people in and around Jerusalem would have had a much better understanding of atonement since atonement sacrifices were going on every hour at the temple, maybe thousands each day. All mature adults would have most likely participated in the individual process of atonement, but this was only for unintentional sins (really minor sins) since intentional sins had no Old Testament system for atonement.

            Those only able to afford a bag of flour (Lev. 5) certainly would not have considered that bag of flour to be a “substitute” for them. There is nothing to suggest the Jewish people ever thought of any sacrifices to be substitutes for them. So what did they experience in this atonement process for unintentional sins? If we could relate to their atonement experience for “minor” sins we might be able to extrapolate to what the atonement process would be like for intentional sins? (Read Lev. 5)

            Forgiveness for unintentional sins came after the completion of the atonement process (Lev. 5), but did God need a bag of flour to forgive the person’s sins?

            Would God need anything to forgive a person’s sins or is it the person needing something to accept that forgiveness as pure charity?

            Is Christ Crucified described by Paul, Peter, Jesus, John and the Hebrew writer as a ransom type payment?

            I find the ransom description more than just an analogy to be an excellent fit and I am not talking about the “Ransom Theory of Atonement”

            Ransom as those in the first century might understand it (it was well known Caesura at 21 had been kidnapped and a ransom paid for him):

            1. Someone other than the captive paying the ransom.
            2. The payment is a huge sacrificial payment for the payer, who would personally prefer not to pay.
            3. Since those that come to God must come as children, it is the children of God that go to the Father.
            4. The payer cannot safely or for some other reason get his children any other way than making the payment.
            5. The kidnapper is totally undeserving.
            6. The kidnapper can accept or reject the payment.


            Go to Luke 15: 11-32 the prodigal son story to illustrate:

            Who in the middle of the night snuck in and dragged off the young son, force the son to do evil stuff and finally chained him to a pigsty starving to death? (this is not the way it happened, but the child of the father was kidnapped.)

            Who returned to the father, was it the son that rebelliously wished his father’s death so he could get his inheritance or was it the child of the father?

            We can only come to our Father as children, so who is keeping the nonbeliever in the unbelieving state (the kidnapper)?

            There is the one ransom, but could there be many kidnappers and many children?

            Who are the kidnappers?

            Looking at verses in particular:

            (NIV) Ro. 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

            “God presented” this might be better expressed as “God is offering” since it will later be received, not received or rejected on the contingency of some kind of “faith”. Instead of received it might better be translated as accepted (with the option of being rejected or not accepted).
            “Sacrifice of atonement” is described by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew writer as the “ransom payment” or just “ransom”. So God is offering a ransom payment to be accepted by those with faith or rejected by those refusing or just not accepted by those lacking faith.

            A huge part of that ransom payment that especially applies to those that are already Christians is the life giving cleansing blood of Christ. Christ and God would have personally preferred that blood remained in Christ’s veins, but I needed it given up by Christ to flow over both my outside and my heart to know, experience, “trust” and feel I am cleansed and made alive. So Christ willingly gave up His blood for me and because of me. This is an overwhelming tragedy I insisted on to believe: I was made holy, righteous and stand justified. Without knowing and feeling this blood flowing over my heart, I might question my cleansing?

            “Demonstrate his righteousness” God did not become righteous, but just showed the righteousness He has always had. (God’s justice/ holiness/being right) comes with the atoning sacrifice that includes the life giving cleansing blood showing God’s righteousness/justice in a very particular way; by resolving the huge problem that existed under the Old Covenant. That huge problem in the Old Covenant was with the handling of intentional sins that where committed, repented of, and which the individual sought forgiveness from God for doing (and God forgave without justly disciplining the sinner [thus not showing His righteousness through His disciplining]). These sins could be forgiven by God, but there was no way to fairly/justly discipline (punish) the sinner and still have the sinner live in the Promised Land. God did have fair/just punishments (discipline) for these sins, but the Jews could not follow through with them, since all Jews deserved to be treated similarly (there would be no one left in the Promised Land).

            “in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished” Instead of “unpunished” I would translate that Greek word to be “undisciplined”.
            “because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”, shows the contrast between before and after the cross. This is not saying: “before the cross sins are now being punished by Christ going to the cross”, but is say they were left unpunished prior to the cross. If they are being handled the “same way” as sins after the cross there would be no contrast? (And there are lots of other problems with this reasoning.) There is no “punishment” (disciplining for intentional sins) before the cross and there is “punishment” (disciplining of God’s children) with the cross.

            Any good parent realizes the need for not just forgiving their rebellious disobedient child, but to also see to the child’s fair/just/loving discipline if at all possible, but under the Old Covenant there was no “fair/just/loving discipline” so God could not show His justice/righteousness except to point out in the Law what really should happen, but that is not “good” disciplining, the child can almost feel they got away with something.

            By my coming to the realization of my forcing Christ to be tortured, humiliated and murdered, because of my personal sins I experience a death blow to my heart (Acts 2: 37) the worst possible experience I can have and still live (That is also the most sever disciplining I can experience and still live). Thus I know God is my loving concerned Parent (since He at great cost has seen to my disciplining). I know how significant my sins really are; I can put those sins behind me after being disciplined. Since God and Jesus shared in my disciplining “I am crucified with Christ” (a teaching moment) our relationship is even greater than before my transgressing.
            What is the benefit/value for us that we would want to accept the ransom payment of Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder?
            What value benefit did it have for those 3000 on the day of Pentecost?
            Would those 3000 have become baptized believers on the day of Pentecost if Peter had not been able to say: Acts 2:36 “…this Jesus whom you crucified”?
            So for those 3000, their crucifying Christ (ransom payment/atoning sacrifice) resulted in them becoming baptized believers on the day of Pentecost! Did it have value for them?

            This will get us started if you really want to know.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Adam View Post
              I reject this new-fangled Penal Substitution. It is not scriptural. Christus Victor is.
              ". . . All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . ." -- Isaiah 53:6.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #8
                37818,

                Your avatar starts with an unobstructed path from man to the supreme being. Then sin creates a chasm between the two which is then followed by a bridge over the chasm with a hurdle sticking up in the middle. What about those who are not able to make it over the hurdle? Will they be tortured 24/7 for eternity because of their inability to clear the impediment?
                Last edited by rstrats; 01-09-2016, 08:04 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                  37818,

                  Your avatar starts with an unobstructed path from man to the supreme being. Then sin creates a chasm between the two which is then followed by a bridge over the chasm with a hurdle sticking up in the middle. What about those who are not able to make it over the hurdle? Will they be tortured 24/7 for eternity because of their inability to clear the impediment?
                  There is no hurdle stick there. Friend, you are imagining what is not really there. The crossing of that bridge is free. There is no toll to be payed to cross. And it is only a graphical illustration.

                  " Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ." -- 1 John 5:1.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Bling, that sounds almost exactly like how one of my professors explained the Moral Influence theory! It is a nice idea, but not my preferred way of understanding the atonement. God bless you, all who have posted, but this is a five month old thread that is only 10 posts long, can we please agree to stop posting in this one?
                    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There is more than one theory of teh atonement. There is the penal=substitutionary model, the classical model, the perfect-pattern-man model, etc. I don't hold with the penal, as it posits unjust punishment of someone innocent, an extension of teh whipping-boy idea. Also, it makes God contradictory. He wants to forgive, but can't until the price is paid. That is a maj0or contradiction.









                      Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                      I have held to the Christus Victor model since I've heard of it, and indeed, that was early in my Christian walk. But, as I was having a conversation with an older gentleman than I (about a 30 year difference), and with a younger man than I (about 3 years), I found myself explaining earnestly that just as in the past, the wrath of God was delivered upon Israel by foreign nations, that Jesus took our place and suffered His wrath through to tools that were the Pharisees and Sadducees. I think I finally understand Penal Substitution and accept it in a way that never made sense to me when explained on old TWeb, or by Wikipedia, or even by that fellow who was on Unbelievable a couple years ago.

                      It was a very odd time because the words were out before I knew it, and in my mind I said to myself, "I didn't know I even believed in that anymore."

                      Comment

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