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Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

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From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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Does preterism lead to atheism?

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  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    We're getting to a point where I'd simply rather not speculate.

    I'd have to look at each one in context, I think.
    Ok, understood.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seanD View Post
      I think you can probably get away with arguing individual evil as being human in nature (unless we get to something outrageously evil like a serial killer mutilating and eating his victims or something), but that isn't so easy when it involves groups of humans collaborating with the evil, such as a government funded organization trafficking fetus body parts for profit, or organizations trafficking underage children for torture and pedophile rings.
      Yeah, I agree. I think more in terms of mass, covert manipulation. Like the media's portrayal of Christians, or it's ability to get people to go along with sin. It creeps into our movies, or music, our tv shows, or games, our radio and newspapers. Little thoughts here and there peppered in with the rest of the banal garbage we mentally digest, and over the years the heat is gradually turned up under the pot until the frogs boil alive. Think about how many years of slow and steady manipulation it took for people to call evil good and good evil. For atheists to write books about how evil Christianity is and it gets to bestsellers lists in nations that were once considered "Christian", how our nation applauds a man for bravely dressing like a woman which in turn will continue to normalize sin and add to the confusion and eventual hopelessness of thousands of people who look up to him. For our societal stance on marriage, something that was once considered sacrosanct, and is now considered disposable. For our ever changing views on sexuality, the destruction of our youth and our unborn, etc.

      And I don't think any of this is new. At various points throughout history we see great evils that seem to be too broad in nature or scope to be the domain of humans alone. I think especially evident is the various periods in church history where it fell under great corruption, and not just in one of the major denominations (EO, RCC, Protestant), but in all of them. There have been points in Christian history where the following could apply to certain Christian leaders just as surely as it did the Pharisees,

      John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

      I think fictional work like the The Screwtape Letters, or films like Network, and They Live are painting a portrait of things closer to how they really are than a lot of us know, or want to know.
      Last edited by Adrift; 08-07-2015, 01:36 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Honestly, I have no idea how you can accurately quantify that. All demons are more powerful than we are without Christ.
        Having had personal experience with a "lesser demon", I already know about their power. There is far too much coordination, and a much more intense anti-Christ spirit, and evil in comparison.

        It's also possible that things are getting worse lately because Satan is no longer bound; Revelation does say that he will be unbound before the end.
        Then where is the final battle Revelation speaks of happening?

        Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

        Again, I see no need to invoke Satan to explain the rise of Islam. It's possible, but not necessary IMO, that Islam was inspired by demonic revelations.
        Having studied it extensively, I do. All of the evidence I've looked at over the years suggests that the Islamic "Allah" is none other than Satan himself. He is the "greatest of deceivers", and "all deception belongs to him". He wishes for the extermination of the Jews, and will send the Mahdi to accomplish this. All who do not follow the Mahdi will be beheaded. He will perform miracles, and will have the Muslim "Isa" support him. He will take over the world through military might, and enforce Sharia law.
        The parallels between the Muslim Mahdi, and the Beast(commonly called the Antichrist) are downright scary. The whole of the Islamic system is anti-Christ from top to bottom. You can see the similarities listed and expounded upon in more depth here, and here.

        You'll have to point me to what in Revelation you're referring to.
        Revelation 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

        4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

        That doesn't sound at all like the world we live in.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          Yeah, I agree. I think more in terms of mass, covert manipulation. Like the media's portrayal of Christians, or it's ability to get people to go along with sin. It creeps into our movies, or music, our tv shows, or games, our radio and newspapers. Little thoughts here and there peppered in with the rest of the banal garbage we mentally digest, and over the years the heat is gradually turned up under the pot until the frogs boil alive. Think about how many years of slow and steady manipulation it took for people to call evil good and good evil. For atheists to write books about how evil Christianity is and it gets to bestsellers lists in nations that were once considered "Christian", how our nation applauds a man for bravely dressing like a woman which in turn will continue to normalize sin and add to the confusion and eventual hopelessness of thousands of people who look up to him. For our societal stance on marriage, something that was once considered sacrosanct, and is now considered disposable. For our ever changing views on sexuality, the destruction of our youth and our unborn, etc.

          And I don't think any of this is new. At various points throughout history we see great evils that seem to be too broad in nature or scope to be the domain of humans alone. I think especially evident is the various periods in church history where it fell under great corruption, and not just in one of the major denominations (EO, RCC, Protestant), but in all of them. There have been points in Christian history where the following could apply to certain Christian leaders just as surely as it did the Pharisees,

          John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

          I think fictional work like the The Screwtape Letters, or films like Network, and They Live are painting a portrait of things closer to how they really are than a lot of us know, or want to know.
          Excellent point. The collaborative effort of a population as a whole to steer against biblical principles, including those that adhere to religious beliefs, can only be seen as a supernatural driving force IMO.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seanD View Post
            Because a group engaging in secret evil is indicative of conspiracy theory and everyone knows human conspiracy theories never happen.
            That has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              That has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked.
              I was sort of kidding. Read Adrift's post #137. He nailed it better than I did.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                Having had personal experience with a "lesser demon", I already know about their power. There is far too much coordination, and a much more intense anti-Christ spirit, and evil in comparison.
                You don't know that all demons have equal power, however.
                Then where is the final battle Revelation speaks of happening?

                Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
                Hasn't happened yet. If Satan has indeed been released, he's still busy gathering his armies. You'll note that there is no explicit time table for this.
                Having studied it extensively, I do. All of the evidence I've looked at over the years suggests that the Islamic "Allah" is none other than Satan himself. He is the "greatest of deceivers", and "all deception belongs to him". He wishes for the extermination of the Jews, and will send the Mahdi to accomplish this. All who do not follow the Mahdi will be beheaded. He will perform miracles, and will have the Muslim "Isa" support him. He will take over the world through military might, and enforce Sharia law.
                The parallels between the Muslim Mahdi, and the Beast(commonly called the Antichrist) are downright scary. The whole of the Islamic system is anti-Christ from top to bottom. You can see the similarities listed and expounded upon in more depth here, and here.
                According to John's letters, there is more than one antichrist - and even where the term is used in the singular, it is not referring to Satan himself.
                Revelation 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

                4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

                That doesn't sound at all like the world we live in.
                Most of that doesn't say anything about the world we live in. That the nations are now being deceived may mean that Satan is now unbound, unlike before - or you could be misinterpreting current events as the deception of the nations. Prophecy is usually clear only in hindsight.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  You don't know that all demons have equal power, however.
                  Never said they were(in fact, I know they don't), but what I'm talking would take thousands upon thousands of them working in concert over thousands of years.

                  Hasn't happened yet. If Satan has indeed been released, he's still busy gathering his armies. You'll note that there is no explicit time table for this.
                  The text suggests a rather immediate battle, and subsequent judgment on Satan. Especially since it says that Satan is only to be let loose for a short time. It wouldn't take long to incite such a rebellion, especially under your belief that none of the demons out now are as powerful as Satan.

                  According to John's letters, there is more than one antichrist - and even where the term is used in the singular, it is not referring to Satan himself.
                  When I say "antichrist spirit", I mean something that is far beyond mankind, and what mankind is capable of. Especially those who were involved. Satan is described as the power behind "the beast", who is seen as the Antichrist. Only Satan fits as the one behind these actions.

                  Revelation 13:1 The dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

                  The power behind the "beast" is Satan here. He's the "dragon" after all. I'd say he's the primary force behind all of that which could be called "antichrist". Even if it is in a more indirect way.

                  Most of that doesn't say anything about the world we live in. That the nations are now being deceived may mean that Satan is now unbound, unlike before - or you could be misinterpreting current events as the deception of the nations. Prophecy is usually clear only in hindsight.
                  It says that during the 1,000 years that Satan is bound, and unable to deceive the nations. That doesn't describe any period in Earth's history, and certainly not now. It also speaks of the Saints being resurrected, and ruling alongside Christ as they await the Great White Throne judgment. Again, this does not describe anything in our past. Your last sentence actually speaks against what you've said so far. 90% of that should be in hindsight right now, and it certainly doesn't seem very clear.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                    If you check Roderick's website I think you will see he is talking mainly about partial preterism. He was a partial preterist for 15 years before he rejected it. Sam Frost is named as another who followed the same path. I don't think Roderick ever accepted full preterism. I think Craig is talking about partial preterism as well, because he criticizes a coming in judgment in 70AD. Of course both modern preterism and futurism were introduced by the Jesuits to counter Protestant historicism in the 18th century.
                    The Jesuits don't seem to have become atheists. So if they introduced preterism, and if preterism leads to atheism, why are they not atheists ? The Jesuits did not have to "introduce" either preterism or futurism, as the Fathers of the first four centuries held these views: https://beatimundocorde.wordpress.co...t-historicism/

                    Comment


                    • Huh. Looks like the only option is to develop contingency plans for every eschatological scenario. Maybe I should start a thread about possible plans!
                      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                        I'm a long time member of TWEB. In the old days I asserted that preterism, taken to its logical conclusions, can lead to atheism. It turns out I wasn't just whistling dixie.

                        Famous Christian apologist William Lane Craig gives a personal expeirience where one of his colleagues was led to atheism by preterism. It is at 8:30 of his video below. He also gives a critique of preterism in the next video.

                        https://youtu.be/tRgSBmQfL_A

                        https://youtu.be/a7NSBjGy7m0

                        Long time preterist Roderick E. puts it this way.



                        http://unpreterist.blogspot.com/2014...onclusion.html


                        Another danger of preterism is that it leads to liberal political views that reject traditional Christian values, as in the Libertarian party. Famous atheists like magician Penn Gillette are Libertarians. The folowing video shows how Christian values are made fun of.

                        https://youtu.be/S4BY5ZGurCU
                        Roderick E.'s "Preterism's Premises" are not the only ones possible. As for the objection that preterism leads to the "wrong" political views - I don't understand that reasoning at all. Are people to avoid certain decisions about the meaning of Scripture, not because those decisions are exegetically unjustified, but because they are compatible with political and social positions that are deemed undesirable ? If the Reformers had thought in that way, Protestantism would not exist.

                        Whether a view is exegetically, theologically or socially "liberal" or not, could not be less important. Whether Christians are made fun of, does not matter. Sound exegesis of Scripture matters a lot, and if the results are uncomfortable for the Church and society, maybe that is exactly the message that the Church and society need to hear.

                        If preterism is objectionable, objections to it should be based on its inadequacies as a method of exegesis, since it stands, or falls, as a method of exegesis. Its social effects, real or imagined, are immaterial if it is good at doing what it is meant to do. Besides, life is usually too complicated for one thing - in this case, preterism - to be the only cause of an effect; whether atheism, being a Libertarian, or anything else. If preterists do not become atheists, that could be because preterism does not of itself lead to atheism, and not because they are being inconsistent or too thoughtless to pursue the logic of preterism.
                        Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 08-10-2016, 06:23 PM.

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