Originally posted by One Bad Pig
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Eschatology 201 Guidelines
This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
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Does preterism lead to atheism?
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI think you can probably get away with arguing individual evil as being human in nature (unless we get to something outrageously evil like a serial killer mutilating and eating his victims or something), but that isn't so easy when it involves groups of humans collaborating with the evil, such as a government funded organization trafficking fetus body parts for profit, or organizations trafficking underage children for torture and pedophile rings.
And I don't think any of this is new. At various points throughout history we see great evils that seem to be too broad in nature or scope to be the domain of humans alone. I think especially evident is the various periods in church history where it fell under great corruption, and not just in one of the major denominations (EO, RCC, Protestant), but in all of them. There have been points in Christian history where the following could apply to certain Christian leaders just as surely as it did the Pharisees,
John 8:42If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
I think fictional work like the The Screwtape Letters, or films like Network, and They Live are painting a portrait of things closer to how they really are than a lot of us know, or want to know.Last edited by Adrift; 08-07-2015, 01:36 PM.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostHonestly, I have no idea how you can accurately quantify that. All demons are more powerful than we are without Christ.
It's also possible that things are getting worse lately because Satan is no longer bound; Revelation does say that he will be unbound before the end.Again, I see no need to invoke Satan to explain the rise of Islam. It's possible, but not necessary IMO, that Islam was inspired by demonic revelations.
The parallels between the Muslim Mahdi, and the Beast(commonly called the Antichrist) are downright scary. The whole of the Islamic system is anti-Christ from top to bottom. You can see the similarities listed and expounded upon in more depth here, and here.
You'll have to point me to what in Revelation you're referring to.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
That doesn't sound at all like the world we live in.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYeah, I agree. I think more in terms of mass, covert manipulation. Like the media's portrayal of Christians, or it's ability to get people to go along with sin. It creeps into our movies, or music, our tv shows, or games, our radio and newspapers. Little thoughts here and there peppered in with the rest of the banal garbage we mentally digest, and over the years the heat is gradually turned up under the pot until the frogs boil alive. Think about how many years of slow and steady manipulation it took for people to call evil good and good evil. For atheists to write books about how evil Christianity is and it gets to bestsellers lists in nations that were once considered "Christian", how our nation applauds a man for bravely dressing like a woman which in turn will continue to normalize sin and add to the confusion and eventual hopelessness of thousands of people who look up to him. For our societal stance on marriage, something that was once considered sacrosanct, and is now considered disposable. For our ever changing views on sexuality, the destruction of our youth and our unborn, etc.
And I don't think any of this is new. At various points throughout history we see great evils that seem to be too broad in nature or scope to be the domain of humans alone. I think especially evident is the various periods in church history where it fell under great corruption, and not just in one of the major denominations (EO, RCC, Protestant), but in all of them. There have been points in Christian history where the following could apply to certain Christian leaders just as surely as it did the Pharisees,
John 8:42If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
I think fictional work like the The Screwtape Letters, or films like Network, and They Live are painting a portrait of things closer to how they really are than a lot of us know, or want to know.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostBecause a group engaging in secret evil is indicative of conspiracy theory and everyone knows human conspiracy theories never happen."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostHaving had personal experience with a "lesser demon", I already know about their power. There is far too much coordination, and a much more intense anti-Christ spirit, and evil in comparison.
Hasn't happened yet. If Satan has indeed been released, he's still busy gathering his armies. You'll note that there is no explicit time table for this.
Having studied it extensively, I do. All of the evidence I've looked at over the years suggests that the Islamic "Allah" is none other than Satan himself. He is the "greatest of deceivers", and "all deception belongs to him". He wishes for the extermination of the Jews, and will send the Mahdi to accomplish this. All who do not follow the Mahdi will be beheaded. He will perform miracles, and will have the Muslim "Isa" support him. He will take over the world through military might, and enforce Sharia law.
The parallels between the Muslim Mahdi, and the Beast(commonly called the Antichrist) are downright scary. The whole of the Islamic system is anti-Christ from top to bottom. You can see the similarities listed and expounded upon in more depth here, and here.
Revelation 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
That doesn't sound at all like the world we live in.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou don't know that all demons have equal power, however.
Hasn't happened yet. If Satan has indeed been released, he's still busy gathering his armies. You'll note that there is no explicit time table for this.
According to John's letters, there is more than one antichrist - and even where the term is used in the singular, it is not referring to Satan himself.
Revelation 13:1 The dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.Most of that doesn't say anything about the world we live in. That the nations are now being deceived may mean that Satan is now unbound, unlike before - or you could be misinterpreting current events as the deception of the nations. Prophecy is usually clear only in hindsight.
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Originally posted by eschaton View PostIf you check Roderick's website I think you will see he is talking mainly about partial preterism. He was a partial preterist for 15 years before he rejected it. Sam Frost is named as another who followed the same path. I don't think Roderick ever accepted full preterism. I think Craig is talking about partial preterism as well, because he criticizes a coming in judgment in 70AD. Of course both modern preterism and futurism were introduced by the Jesuits to counter Protestant historicism in the 18th century.
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Originally posted by eschaton View PostI'm a long time member of TWEB. In the old days I asserted that preterism, taken to its logical conclusions, can lead to atheism. It turns out I wasn't just whistling dixie.
Famous Christian apologist William Lane Craig gives a personal expeirience where one of his colleagues was led to atheism by preterism. It is at 8:30 of his video below. He also gives a critique of preterism in the next video.
https://youtu.be/tRgSBmQfL_A
https://youtu.be/a7NSBjGy7m0
Long time preterist Roderick E. puts it this way.
http://unpreterist.blogspot.com/2014...onclusion.html
Another danger of preterism is that it leads to liberal political views that reject traditional Christian values, as in the Libertarian party. Famous atheists like magician Penn Gillette are Libertarians. The folowing video shows how Christian values are made fun of.
https://youtu.be/S4BY5ZGurCU
Whether a view is exegetically, theologically or socially "liberal" or not, could not be less important. Whether Christians are made fun of, does not matter. Sound exegesis of Scripture matters a lot, and if the results are uncomfortable for the Church and society, maybe that is exactly the message that the Church and society need to hear.
If preterism is objectionable, objections to it should be based on its inadequacies as a method of exegesis, since it stands, or falls, as a method of exegesis. Its social effects, real or imagined, are immaterial if it is good at doing what it is meant to do. Besides, life is usually too complicated for one thing - in this case, preterism - to be the only cause of an effect; whether atheism, being a Libertarian, or anything else. If preterists do not become atheists, that could be because preterism does not of itself lead to atheism, and not because they are being inconsistent or too thoughtless to pursue the logic of preterism.Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 08-10-2016, 06:23 PM.
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