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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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Does preterism lead to atheism?

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  • #16
    I think I answered your question in my opening post. Dr. Craig, Roderick E, and myself all agree and have given our reasons.
    The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

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    • #17
      Originally posted by eschaton View Post
      I think I answered your question in my opening post. Dr. Craig, Roderick E, and myself all agree and have given our reasons.
      Not really. Saying it does isn't the same as detailing a logical proof. Any orthodox preterist would still believe that God will raise the dead and deliver judgement in the last day. Why would their be specific predictions for things happening thousands of years later(other than the resurrection, final judgement, new creation)? It still wouldn't have a factor for us. Why be so sure that we are in the end times? If it happened like that, it could still be thousands more years. Jesus could come back anytime within the next 800 million years(whenever conditions on earth are too hot for life).
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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      • #18
        An orthodox preterist wouldn't say anything like that if he becomes an atheist. Did you follow Roderick's logic? Did you follow Craig's logic? To me partial preterist interpretation seems wholly inconsistent. There are two second comings similar to what dispensationalism teaches. One in 70AD and one at the end of the world. One is speaking metaphorically and the other literally. Full preterists are right to criticize partial preterists for their arbitrary interpretation.

        Consider the fact that over a million babies a year are legally slaughtered in this country. God's created order has been rejected here and much of the world (Mat 19:4-5). How long can things continue?
        The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

        https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

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        • #19
          Hprrible stuff has be going on for millennia. I personaly don't care who is right. I just don't like any view getting portrayed as bad, when it doesn't follow. And you can't argue by weblink. You have to give the actual syllogism.
          For example
          If the dead are not raised, than Christ has not been raised.
          The Resurrection of Jesus is core to Christianity.
          Thus, in order for Christianity to be true, Christ had to have been raised from the dead.
          Thus, the dead are raised.

          More formally: If A, then B. A. Therefore B.
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by eschaton View Post
            If you check Roderick's website I think you will see he is talking mainly about partial preterism. He was a partial preterist for 15 years before he rejected it. Sam Frost is named as another who followed the same path. I don't think Roderick ever accepted full preterism. I think Craig is talking about partial preterism as well, because he criticizes a coming in judgment in 70AD. Of course both modern preterism and futurism were introduced by the Jesuits to counter Protestant historicism in the 18th century.
            Roderick was emphatically NOT a partial preterist for 15 years - he was a hyperpreterist. If you can't get that basic point correct, there's no point in even skimming anything else you type.
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            • #21
              If you don't care who is right then you don't care anything about the truth. I don't have to dance to your music.
              The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

              https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                Politics, schmolitics. I don't really see why Christianity should be tied to it. All politicians do a terrible job compared to Jesus. Of course, Jesus is a better person than anyone ever could be...
                Because there are more than two people in the Body of Christ. Literally. Politics is just how people organize and control power. It happens in every group larger than two. We as Christians have to deal both with our internal politics and the world's external politics because either we deal with them or they will deal with us, and not in a good way.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  Because there are more than two people in the Body of Christ. Literally. Politics is just how people organize and control power. It happens in every group larger than two. We as Christians have to deal both with our internal politics and the world's external politics because either we deal with them or they will deal with us, and not in a good way.
                  Oh. I guess politics just has a negative connotation to it. But that would be worldly politics, right? There can be a good politics and not just the bad kind?
                  If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                    If you don't care who is right then you don't care anything about the truth. I don't have to dance to your music.
                    Wow. I don't even know what kind of logical fallacy that is. The preterism vs futurism vs whateverelsethereisism just seems to have academic importance. If it doesn't have life or death importance, I'm not going to be dogmatic about things that can wait until I can find out the truth direct from Jesus.
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                    • #25
                      Is atheism of just academic importance?
                      The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                      https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                        I'm a long time member of TWEB. In the old days I asserted that preterism, taken to its logical conclusions, can lead to atheism. It turns out I wasn't just whistling dixie.

                        Famous Christian apologist William Lane Craig gives a personal expeirience where one of his colleagues was led to atheism by preterism. It is at 8:30 of his video below. He also gives a critique of preterism in the next video.

                        https://youtu.be/tRgSBmQfL_A

                        https://youtu.be/a7NSBjGy7m0

                        Long time preterist Roderick E. puts it this way.



                        http://unpreterist.blogspot.com/2014...onclusion.html


                        Another danger of preterism is that it leads to liberal political views that reject traditional Christian values, as in the Libertarian party. Famous atheists like magician Penn Gillette are Libertarians. The folowing video shows how Christian values are made fun of.

                        https://youtu.be/S4BY5ZGurCU
                        Disclaimer: I am not a Preterist, partial or full.

                        I have seen documented people who have become atheists because of YEC.
                        I have seen documented people who have become atheists because of Theistic Evolution.

                        I have seen documented people who have become atheists because of Calvinism.
                        I have seen documented people who have become atheists because of Arminianism.
                        I have seen documented people who have become atheists because of Molinism.
                        I have seen documented people who have become atheists because of Open Theism.

                        I have seen documented people who have become atheists because of Cessation.
                        I have seen documented people who have become atheists because of Pentecostalism.

                        I have seen documented people who have become atheists because of Roman Catholicism.
                        I have seen documented people who have become atheists because of Eastern Orthodoxy.
                        I have seen documented people who have become atheists because of Protestant..ism.

                        At the end of the day, those are all excuses.
                        Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                        1 Corinthians 16:13

                        "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                        -Ben Witherington III

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                        • #27
                          That's all good, but I have presented evidence from a leading Christian apologist, maybe the best in the world, and a 15 year partial preterist.
                          The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                          https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                            That's all good, but I have presented evidence from a leading Christian apologist, maybe the best in the world, and a 15 year partial preterist.
                            And I can provide evidence from leading Christian apologists that each of the things I listed above is the excuse that someone, who may have held that belief for a number of years, used to blame their becoming an atheist on.

                            The fact that someone uses it as an excuse doesn't confirm whether or not the position is a valid one.The fact the a leading Christian apologist may happen to disagree with it doesn't mean that the position is invalid.
                            Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                            1 Corinthians 16:13

                            "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                            -Ben Witherington III

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Please do present the evidence. Preterism is an eschatological belief, so you might wish to put it in another forum. I think the evidence stands on its own. Evidence is evidence. It might or might not prove anything. Each person has to decide for themselves. Two people might look at the same evidence and come to opposite conclusions. That doesn't mean we should give up trying to find truth. We just try to give the best presentation we can.
                              The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                              https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                                Wow. I don't even know what kind of logical fallacy that is. The preterism vs futurism vs whateverelsethereisism just seems to have academic importance. If it doesn't have life or death importance, I'm not going to be dogmatic about things that can wait until I can find out the truth direct from Jesus.
                                Jesus believed nothing false. That's part of what made Him so awesome. Those closest to being as He is believe very little that is false. Believing in the false and untrue is both a symptom of untruth in the "inward parts" and a cause for believing more untruth. In other words, not even opinions are completely harmless, especially opinions about how to properly interpret God's word.

                                If the truth alone is what can set us free, I have a difficult time understanding your "wait and see" mentality. I do understand a "seek and find" mentality or a "hunger and thirst" mentality, but not a "wait and see" mentality. The Lord Himself criticized those present at His first coming for not properly interpreting the signs and the times, with no trace of this "wait and see" mentality that you flippantly endorse.

                                Please don't respond to this post emotionally, which I understand will be twice as hard for you as a woman, but please. I am saying all of this for your benefit as well as those reading.

                                At the very least, if futurism is the proper interpretation and moreover if the post-tribulational rapture is the proper sub-interpretation, then this matter is indeed a matter of life and death, is it not? Other than begging the question, how do you know that you have time to "wait and see?"

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