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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Does preterism lead to atheism?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Irate Canadian View Post
    the original owner was a preterist.
    Yes, I know.

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    • #62
      you ended your last statement with a question mark, which is why I answered.
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      • #63
        Originally posted by Irate Canadian View Post
        you ended your last statement with a question mark, which is why I answered.
        One preterist doesn't explain to me why the belief is so ingrained in this forum as opposed to anywhere else, was what I was curious about.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by seanD View Post
          One preterist doesn't explain to me why the belief is so ingrained in this forum as opposed to anywhere else, was what I was curious about.
          If I had to guess, I think Holding being a preterist has something to do with it, since he was responsible for a lot of the traffic to this forum back in the day. His apologetical work is top-notch, so people might have assumed that his eschatology was equally as sound, though you and I know it isn't.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Darfius View Post
            If I had to guess, I think Holding being a preterist has something to do with it, since he was responsible for a lot of the traffic to this forum back in the day. His apologetical work is top-notch, so people might have assumed that his eschatology was equally as sound, though you and I know it isn't.
            True, and he's the reason I found this forum. It also seems there are futurists here but they aren't as vocal about it. For example, there have been preterists that have started threads attacking futurism that don't get as much attention (other than you and me lol) than when a thread is started by a futurist attacking preterism.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by seanD View Post
              True, and he's the reason I found this forum. It also seems there are futurists here but they aren't as vocal about it. For example, there have been preterists that have started threads attacking futurism that don't get as much attention (other than you and me lol) than when a thread is started by a futurist attacking preterism.
              After having read the Scriptures, read commentaries, and studied the basics of all the positions, plus an Unbelievable podcast that Dee Dee was on, I was thoroughly unconvinced of Preterism, and thoroughly convinced of a pre-Wrath understanding of the rapture.

              However, I have very little care to be dogmatic on eschatology unless someone denies the bodily resurrection. I think do not think partial Preterism leads to atheism anymore than anything else, besides, I hold to preserverence of the Saints, this Rodrick fellow must never have been a Christian of he's apostacized.
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              • #67
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                True, and he's the reason I found this forum. It also seems there are futurists here but they aren't as vocal about it. For example, there have been preterists that have started threads attacking futurism that don't get as much attention (other than you and me lol) than when a thread is started by a futurist attacking preterism.
                The preterists generally don't start bizarre threads attributing human qualities to futurism, or litter the threads with sexist remarks, or attempt to draw vague connections to something without explaining it, and most significantly, aren't smug, patronizing blockheads like a certain futurist.
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                • #68
                  Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  One preterist doesn't explain to me why the belief is so ingrained in this forum as opposed to anywhere else, was what I was curious about.
                  TWeb was created specifically because many of the preterists on another apologetics forum (with a similar sounding name) were unfairly censored/banned for arguing for preterism. So they thought to create their own forum with a more open attitude and more lax rules.

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                  • #69
                    The problem is not perterism. But the path to perterism and the path to atheism do have some common points of intersection.

                    One can make the argument that pre-trib dispensationalism leads to Biblical preterism.

                    What pre-trib dispensationalist and Biblical preterism have in common is the belief in an imminent return of Christ. [As a post-trib (pre-wrath view) I reject a now imminent coming of Christ.] For the pre-trib dispensationalism this imminent return is even now pending. For the Biblical perterist it was an historic fact which took place.

                    The key verses that branches off to either denial of the historic Christian faith or results in the Biblical perterist view is typically found in our chapter 24 of Matthew.

                    ". . . when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. . . ." The "ye" and "this generation" being interpreted as Jesus' disciples and in that current generation to whom He is speaking.

                    So either it is a failed prophecy, those disciples and the generation long since past. Or it took place in those disciples and that current generation's life time.

                    If viewed as a failed prophecy - leads to a logical denial of the faith - atheism is a possible outcome.
                    If viewed from a historical Biblical perspective, the word of God being inerrant, Biblical perterism is the logical conclusion.

                    Personally I hold a post-trib pre-wrath yet future view of those events referred to by the words "when ye shall see all these things." The "ye" not being limited to those to whom Jesus at that time spoke.

                    One can argue for each case, yes. But to understand each case from each view, that must be done regardless of view held.
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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                      I don't think preterism necessarily excludes the possibility of multiple fulfillments of prophecy, so it's theoretically possible that a dystopian beast-worshipping government could arise regardless of which eschatological view is true. And if such a government arose, doesn't Jesus imply in Matthew 24:24 that the elect will not be deceived? It seems that no matter what happens, the only way you could argue that preterists would choose the wrong action is by asserting that no preterists are part of the elect...a road that I'm sure you're bright enough to not take.
                      I'm trying to point out what IC is missing from Darfius' posts. Darfius has already said he sees preterists as rationalizing away any kind of eschatological meaning in current events for self preservation. I said it to IC, I'll say it again. If Darfius is right, then there is indeed a life or death situation.

                      This is still a problem of life and death(not eternal) even if they aren't deceived, because those who do not worship the beast are to be executed. This is of course under a futurist, post tribulation rapture scenario. So, I don't see how you got what you did out of my posts.

                      To say that there are no elect preterists goes way too far, yes. To think that there are those in all denominations and nonessential belief groups that are not elect is not however.

                      I don't have much agreement with Darfius(I am a futurist, but not post tribulation rapture. I haven't studied eschatology much though.), but IC was missing a rather big part of what would happen under the scenario Darfius believes.

                      You think he cares?
                      I thought that maybe, just maybe he would be more willing to listen to a fellow futurist about some of what he's saying.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Irate Canadian View Post
                        Why does it seem like all the futurists are sexist? I mean, come on guys, you aren't doing any favours to your cause then.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                          After having read the Scriptures, read commentaries, and studied the basics of all the positions, plus an Unbelievable podcast that Dee Dee was on, I was thoroughly unconvinced of Preterism, and thoroughly convinced of a pre-Wrath understanding of the rapture.

                          However, I have very little care to be dogmatic on eschatology unless someone denies the bodily resurrection. I think do not think partial Preterism leads to atheism anymore than anything else, besides, I hold to preserverence of the Saints, this Rodrick fellow must never have been a Christian of he's apostacized.
                          Could you point me to evidence that Roderick E. has, in fact, apostasized?
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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                            You're not included in that list. You're a pretty cool chap.

                            Although I have noticed that some fundamentalist Christians on TWeb (who are generally futurists) tend to be more sexist then those not in that camp. I'm not saying that all futurists are sexists, but I think they have a higher percentage of people who believe women to be lesser, probably because they are a bigger and more conservative then the other groups.
                            "It's evolution; every time you invent something fool-proof, the world invents a better fool."
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                            "Preach the gospel, and if necessary use words." - Most likely St.Francis


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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by seanD View Post
                              On Tweb, definitely. But I haven't meant one preterist outside of Tweb, neither online or in real life, which is odd to me. I take it Tweb was originally started with like-minded preterists or something?
                              I have to explain what it is anytime it gets mentioned - usually by me and no, I'm not a preterist of any stripe.
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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                No, you haven't. Roderick E was, like Sam Frost, a hyperpreterist. Saying otherwise is a flat out lie easily exposed by merely reading the link you gave to Roderick E.'s blog.

                                What is wrong with you? You didn't use to be this trollish.
                                Sorry. My bad.

                                http://unpreterist.blogspot.com/2013...ee-warren.html

                                However, the original link applies 1000% to partial as well as full preterism.

                                http://unpreterist.blogspot.com/2014...onclusion.html
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