If the Watchtower believed the Trinity...

[Cal_Minian]

[OldShepherd]
And FYI Wallace only addresses the personal pronoun . None of these vss. rely on the personal pronoun.

[CalMinian]
When you read the article here, I will accept your apology that you misrepresent Wallace.

Here is the link again: http://www.ibr-bbr.org/IBRBulletin/B...HolySpirit.htm

Wallace speaks of more than the personal pronoun. Here are some of the things Wallace includes in the article:


PASSAGES INVOLVING GRAMMATICAL GENDER - Here Wallace says that when a bible writer believed a neuter word refers to a person and not a thing that bible writers will frequently shift to using masculine work forms with that neuter noun. He calls that Constructio Ad Sensum. - page 97

Masculine Demonstrative Pronoun - You refer to this with your comment on the personal pronoun. - page 102

PASSAGES INVOLVING AGENCY- Verses where some appeal that the holy spirit is the ultimate agent in some action - Page 120


When the spirit is presented as personal - Page 124 and footnote 93

It is not enough to say either that the Spirit is presented as personal [93] or that he is sometimes not distinguished from God (as in Acts 5:3-4). What also must be done is (1) a clear demonstration that language about the Spirit's personality cannot be due to figurative rhetoric or circumlocution of the divine name, and (2) that where he is viewed as personal he is also viewed as deity, yet, (3) in those same texts, is seen as distinct from both Father and Son.

Footnote 93. Apart from the grammatical argument that has been addressed in this paper,
the NT speaks of the Holy Spirit in personal terms, especially as the subject or object
of personal verbs (e.g., teaching, grieving, blaspheming, etc.). Many theologians and
exegetes appeal to such texts as though they demonstrated the personality of the Spirit
without showing how similar phenomena in Jewish literature do not demonstrate this. For ex-
ample, in Sir 39:28, pneu/mata (which, in this context, means "winds") is personified,
with the masculine pronoun au)tou/j, following.

These account for all of your so-called "proofs"

-Cal

[OldShepherd]

[OldShepherd]
And FYI Wallace only addresses the personal pronoun . None of these vss. rely on the personal pronoun.

[CalMinian]
When you read the article here, I will accept your apology that you misrepresent Wallace.

Here is the link again: http://www.ibr-bbr.org/IBRBulletin/B...HolySpirit.htm

Wallace speaks of more than the personal pronoun. Here are some of the things Wallace includes in the article:


PASSAGES INVOLVING GRAMMATICAL GENDER - Here Wallace says that when a bible writer believed a neuter word refers to a person and not a thing that bible writers will frequently shift to using masculine work forms with that neuter noun. He calls that Constructio Ad Sensum. - page 97

Masculine Demonstrative Pronoun - You refer to this with your comment on the personal pronoun. - page 102

PASSAGES INVOLVING AGENCY- Verses where some appeal that the holy spirit is the ultimate agent in some action - Page 120


When the spirit is presented as personal - Page 124 and footnote 93

It is not enough to say either that the Spirit is presented as personal [93] or that he is sometimes not distinguished from God (as in Acts 5:3-4). What also must be done is (1) a clear demonstration that language about the Spirit's personality cannot be due to figurative rhetoric or circumlocution of the divine name, and (2) that where he is viewed as personal he is also viewed as deity, yet, (3) in those same texts, is seen as distinct from both Father and Son.

Footnote 93. Apart from the grammatical argument that has been addressed in this paper,
the NT speaks of the Holy Spirit in personal terms, especially as the subject or object
of personal verbs (e.g., teaching, grieving, blaspheming, etc.). Many theologians and
exegetes appeal to such texts as though they demonstrated the personality of the Spirit
without showing how similar phenomena in Jewish literature do not demonstrate this. For ex-
ample, in Sir 39:28, pneu/mata (which, in this context, means "winds") is personified,
with the masculine pronoun au)tou/j, following.

These account for all of your so-called "proofs"

-Cal

You haven't even begun to account for anything! Absolutely nothing to apologize for one short foot note, which does NOT specifically address the 91 vss. I posted. There is no in-depth discussion of this point. 1-2 personifications of something in non-canonical literature such as Sirach does NOT prove anything about all these personal characteristics of the Holy Spirit. mentioned in scripture, Access to God, Anoints for Service, Assures, Authors Scripture, Baptizes, Believers Born of, Calls and Commissions, Cleanses, Comforts, Communion with believers, Convicts of sin, Counsels, Creates, Empowers, Empowers Believers, Fellowship with believers, Fills, Forbids action, Gives gifts, Glorifies Christ, Guides in truth, Helps our, Indwells believers, Inspires prayer, Intercedes, Interprets Scripture, Leads, Liberates, Molds Character, Produces fruit, Raises from the dead, Regenerates, Reveals, Sanctifies, Seals, Sends, Sent, Strengthens, Testifies of Jesus,Victory over flesh, Warns,Worship helper.

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is false. If the Holy Spirit were merely an impersonal force or power, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

The truth is, there are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit

1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3

[91]

[Cal_Minian]

You are free to disagree with Wallace if you like. Don't shoot the messenger :)

[OldShepherd]

You are free to disagree with Wallace if you like. Don't shoot the messenger :)

Oooh, is him feeling a little paranoid? As I said one vague reference to one vs. in a non-canonical book is hardly a scholarly address of anything. And OBTW one fallible scholar does NOT a consensus make! Guess what controversy sells, the more controversial something is the more it sells. Ever hear the old axiom, "Publish or perish?"

[Cal_Minian]

Oooh, is him feeling a little paranoid? As I said one vague reference to one vs. in a non-canonical book is hardly a scholarly address of anything. And OBTW one fallible scholar does NOT a consensus make! Guess what controversy sells, the more controversial something is the more it sells. Ever hear the old axiom, "Publish or perish?"

What you fail to realize is that in that particular instance Wallace points out that in Jewish literature the neuter PNUEMATA (winds) is used with a masculine pronoun. This is the sort of grammatical personification that is missing for the holy spirit in the GNT. If Trinitarians had this kind of proof of personhood for the HS they would be dancing a jig! It shows that when a writer wanted to personify a spirit they would articulate it in this fashion.

-Cal

[apostoli]

Hi Carl,

Long time since we last spoke...

What you are trying to do is make various descriptions of the multi-faceted holy spirit to "walk on all fours." You should consider all the verses about the holy spirit such as:

NET 1 Corinthians 2:10 God has revealed these to us by the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the things of a man except the man's spirit within him? So too, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

There verses that represent the spirit of man as being differentiated from man in the same context as the spirit of God, but you don't argue that man's spirit is a person independent from that man!

-Cal

To me the trinity debates are idle curiousity and outside the scriptural faith, which requires us to believe that the Father is our saviour, because he sent the Son, and the Son is our saviour, because he died for us. You'll probably throw a million questions at me concerning the Spirit. I admit its a toughy to articulate, particularly as in John the parakletos is expressed in terms of a person and elsewhere the Spirit is obviously an active force, but consider Rom 8:5-11 where we encounter the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God. At Rom 8:26-27 it is the Spirit (not the other two spirits) that intercede for us. I've often contemplated this, and have the opinion that the Spirit dwells in the church, and the church breathes the Spirit into us, just as Jesus breathed the Spirit into the apostles after the resurrection (Jn 20:22). However, we find in Acts, that despite Jesus having already breathed the Spirit into the disciples (Jn 20:22), that Jesus instructed the disciples to stay in Jerusalem until the Spirit came (Acts 1:4; 2:33).

Peace

[Cal_Minian]

Hi Carl,

Long time since we last spoke...



To me the trinity debates are idle curiousity and outside the scriptural faith, which requires us to believe that the Father is our saviour, because he sent the Son, and the Son is our saviour, because he died for us. You'll probably throw a million questions at me concerning the Spirit. I admit its a toughy to articulate, particularly as in John the parakletos is expressed in terms of a person and elsewhere the Spirit is obviously an active force, but consider Rom 8:5-11 where we encounter the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God. At Rom 8:26-27 it is the Spirit (not the other two spirits) that intercede for us. I've often contemplated this, and have the opinion that the Spirit dwells in the church, and the church breathes the Spirit into us, just as Jesus breathed the Spirit into the apostles after the resurrection (Jn 20:22). However, we find in Acts, that despite Jesus having already breathed the Spirit into the disciples (Jn 20:22), that Jesus instructed the disciples to stay in Jerusalem until the Spirit came (Acts 1:4; 2:33).

Peace

Romans 8 is a very interesting example! Consider what we have published on the subject.

*** it-2 p. 670 Prayer ***
Romans 8:26,27 shows that the Christian, under certain circumstances, will not know just what to pray for; but his unuttered ‘groanings’ are nonetheless understood by God. The apostle shows that this is by means of God’s spirit, or active force. It should be remembered that it was by his spirit that God inspired the Scriptures. (2Ti 3:16,17; 2Pe 1:21) These contained prophecies and included events that prefigured the circumstances that would come upon his servants in later times and showed the way in which God would guide his servants and bring them the help they needed. (Ro 15:4; 1Pe 1:6-12) It may not be until after the needed help has been received that the Christian realizes that what he might have prayed for (but did not know how to) was already set forth in God’s spirit-inspired Word.—Compare 1Co 2:9,10.

-Cal

[OldShepherd]

What you fail to realize is that in that particular instance Wallace points out that in Jewish literature the neuter PNUEMATA (winds) is used with a masculine pronoun. This is the sort of grammatical personification that is missing for the holy spirit in the GNT. If Trinitarians had this kind of proof of personhood for the HS they would be dancing a jig! It shows that when a writer wanted to personify a spirit they would articulate it in this fashion.

-Cal

As I said Cal, Sam, Fred, George, one comment by one fallible scholar, and which does NOT address the large body of scholarship which contradicts him is not compelling.