If the Watchtower believed the Trinity...

[Cal_Minian]

Elementary dear Cal! Jesus is the head of the body of which the apostles are members individually. Therefore, the apostles are subject to Christ and submit to his authority. Since Jesus has declared that NOTHING that enters a mouth can DEFILE a man before the eyes of God, the apostles CANNOT contradict Jesus and impose a penalty for eating blood.



That's why the apostles did not impose any penalty for eating blood. The Holy Spirit would not guide the apostles to write something that CONTRADICTS what Jesus has taught.

Agreed, and since Acts tells us that the holy spirit did indeed instruct the apostles to abstain frmo blood, that command is every bit as important as anything commanded by God. BTW the verse says nothing about eating blood, it says ABSTAIN from blood. Look up that word in the dictionary. It includes eating but entails much more.

[IncRus]

Elementary dear Cal! Jesus is the head of the body of which the apostles are members individually. Therefore, the apostles are subject to Christ and submit to his authority. Since Jesus has declared that NOTHING that enters a mouth can DEFILE a man before the eyes of God, the apostles CANNOT contradict Jesus and impose a penalty for eating blood.

That's why the apostles did not impose any penalty for eating blood. The Holy Spirit would not guide the apostles to write something that CONTRADICTS what Jesus has taught.

Agreed, and since Acts tells us that the holy spirit did indeed instruct the apostles to abstain frmo blood, that command is every bit as important as anything commanded by God. BTW the verse says nothing about eating blood, it says ABSTAIN from blood. Look up that word in the dictionary. It includes eating but entails much more.

The point is, eating blood nor blood transfusion CANNOT defile a man before the eyes of God because according to Jesus, NOTHING that enters a man FROM outside DEFILES a man.

Then you may ask, what's the point of ABSTAINING from blood? Well, there are numerous reasons why one would like to abstain from blood. But one thing is certain, not abstaining from blood does not defile a man in the eyes of God.

[Cal_Minian]

The point is, eating blood nor blood transfusion CANNOT defile a man before the eyes of God because according to Jesus, NOTHING that enters a man FROM outside DEFILES a man.

Then you may ask, what's the point of ABSTAINING from blood? Well, there are numerous reasons why one would like to abstain from blood. But one thing is certain, not abstaining from blood does not defile a man in the eyes of God.

I never made the argument that the improper use of blood defiled a man. That is your argument. I argue that since the holy spirit commands one to abstain from blood, that one who actively and knowingly argues that this command is not to be obeyed is blaspheming the holy spirit and has committed an unforgivable sin. You may not be defiled in the sense of the verse to which you mistakenly apply this text, but you are disobedient and wicked if you do not obey.

[Sparko]

I never made the argument that the improper use of blood defiled a man. That is your argument. I argue that since the holy spirit commands one to abstain from blood, that one who actively and knowingly argues that this command is not to be obeyed is blaspheming the holy spirit and has committed an unforgivable sin. You may not be defiled in the sense of the verse to which you mistakenly apply this text, but you are disobedient and wicked if you do not obey.

I am sorry but how can a "force" command anything and how can you blaspheme a "force" - surely you are not saying the Holy Spirit is a person are you? Why that would make you a trinitarian.

And does that mean that if you disobey any commandment, you are blaspheming God? And is that an unpardonable sin?

[Cal_Minian]

I am sorry but how can a "force" command anything and how can you blaspheme a "force" - surely you are not saying the Holy Spirit is a person are you? Why that would make you a trinitarian.

And does that mean that if you disobey any commandment, you are blaspheming God? And is that an unpardonable sin?

JWs do not teach that the holy spirit is merely a force. That is a caricature of what we teach and an illustration of one facet of how one could view the holy spirit. However it is not the entire teaching.

Here are a few small quotes.. see the article for more details:

*** g99 1/8 p. 26 What Is God’s Holy Spirit? ***

Power in Action

It would not be quite accurate to say that the holy spirit is God’s power. This is because power can be latent, or inactively resident, in someone or something, such as power stored in a charged but unused battery. The Scriptures, however, present God’s spirit in the context of being in motion, somewhat like the electric current that flows from a battery in use. (Genesis 1:2) Hence, God’s holy spirit is his projected energy, his active force. ...

*** g99 1/8 p. 27 What Is God’s Holy Spirit? ***

... In Bible times this concept may have been difficult to grasp. Speaking of the holy spirit as a separate force undoubtedly helped readers to comprehend how God exercises his power even though he does not personally place himself at the location of its operation. When the Bible refers to the holy spirit as having done this or that, it is in effect saying that God himself has projected or exerted his power on persons or things to accomplish his will.

[Sparko]

JWs do not teach that the holy spirit is merely a force. That is a caricature of what we teach and an illustration of one facet of how one could view the holy spirit. However it is not the entire teaching.

Here are a few small quotes.. see the article for more details:

LOL

Hence, God’s holy spirit is his projected energy, his active force. ...

want to try again?

The point is, how can you blaspheme energy or active force? How can you sin against it? How can a force give a command?

and why does the bible say you can sin against the Father and the Son and be forgiven but not this Force? Wouldn't blaspheming this force be blaspheming the Father??

[Cal_Minian]

Sparko:

want to try again?

The point is, how can you blaspheme energy or active force? How can you sin against it? How can a force give a command?

Cal:
The point is that JWs teach that the spirit is a metaphor for the activity of a person, the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Sinning against the spirit is sinning against the Father. If you are going to attempt to refute our theology don't argue against a caricature of our beliefs. That is a straw man argument.

Sparko:
and why does the bible say you can sin against the Father and the Son and be forgiven but not this Force? Wouldn't blaspheming this force be blaspheming the Father??

Cal:
Scripture contrasts sinning against the Son with sinning against the holy spirit, not the Father.

NRS Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Where is a verse that says "sin against the Father and the Son"?

If you cannot produce it, consider your entire line of reasoning refuted.

[Sparko]

Sparko:

want to try again?

The point is, how can you blaspheme energy or active force? How can you sin against it? How can a force give a command?

Cal:
The point is that JWs teach that the spirit is a metaphor for the activity of a person, the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Sinning against the spirit is sinning against the Father. If you are going to attempt to refute our theology don't argue against a caricature of our beliefs. That is a straw man argument.

Sparko:
and why does the bible say you can sin against the Father and the Son and be forgiven but not this Force? Wouldn't blaspheming this force be blaspheming the Father??

Cal:
Scripture contrasts sinning against the Son with sinning against the holy spirit, not the Father.


Where is a verse that says "sin against the Father and the Son"?

If you cannot produce it, consider your entire line of reasoning refuted.

you dork. ALL sin is against God the Father. All blasphemy is against God the Father. And yet we are forgiven all our sins when we trust in Jesus. He died for our sins and blasphemies against God.

So if blaspheming against the holy spirit is sinning against God as you have said, then you have a problem. JW's are saying we cannot be forgiven for blaspheming against God and that we CAN be forgiven for blaspheming against God.

31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

[Cal_Minian]

you dork. ALL sin is against God the Father. All blasphemy is against God the Father. And yet we are forgiven all our sins when we trust in Jesus. He died for our sins and blasphemies against God.

So if blaspheming against the holy spirit is sinning against God as you have said, then you have a problem. JW's are saying we cannot be forgiven for blaspheming against God and that we CAN be forgiven for blaspheming against God.

31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Sparko,
My criticism with the way you presented your argument is that you made it seem that there was actually a text that named the Father as one who could be blasphemed with impunity in contrast with the spirit. We both know there is a text which does contrast blasphemy against the Son and the spirit in that sense.

A more reasonable view would be to take all the parallel accounts and harmonize them, rather than pit them against each other as you have done. In addition you infer "Father" into "every sin and blasphemy" when in fact the Father is not mentioned.

In addition, the Greek word PAS is variously defined as having the sense of "every sort of" as opposed to all without exception as in the KJV rendering -- KJV Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

[Sparko]

Sparko,
My criticism with the way you presented your argument is that you made it seem that there was actually a text that named the Father as one who could be blasphemed with impunity in contrast with the spirit. We both know there is a text which does contrast blasphemy against the Son and the spirit in that sense.

A more reasonable view would be to take all the parallel accounts and harmonize them, rather than pit them against each other as you have done. In addition you infer "Father" into "every sin and blasphemy" when in fact the Father is not mentioned.

In addition, the Greek word PAS is variously defined as having the sense of "every sort of" as opposed to all without exception as in the KJV rendering -- KJV Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

so you dont have an answer then?

How can you blaspheme or sin against the Holy Spirit and not sin against the Father if they are the same person?

and you never answered how the Holy Spirit can command anything if it is just a force.

nice dodging, but that is all it is.

[Cal_Minian]

Sparko:
so you dont have an answer then?

How can you blaspheme or sin against the Holy Spirit and not sin against the Father if they are the same person?

and you never answered how the Holy Spirit can command anything if it is just a force.

nice dodging, but that is all it is.

Cal:
I have already posted part of the article from the 1999 Awake which shows that we do not teach that the holy spirit is just a force.

Please respond to what I presented from that article and you will have your answer.

[Sparko]

Sparko:
so you dont have an answer then?

How can you blaspheme or sin against the Holy Spirit and not sin against the Father if they are the same person?

and you never answered how the Holy Spirit can command anything if it is just a force.

nice dodging, but that is all it is.

Cal:
I have already posted part of the article from the 1999 Awake which shows that we do not teach that the holy spirit is just a force.

Please respond to what I presented from that article and you will have your answer.

I did respond to it. It concluded saying that the Holy spirit was god's projected energy and active FORCE. you are back where you started.

Just keep dodging. everyone reading this can see what you are doing. Maybe one day it will sink in and you will realize that the Holy Spirit is not only God but a person of the Godhead. Your own words betray that even you think of the Holy Spirit as a person as well as God.

So do you want to answer my questions or not?

How can you blaspheme or sin against the Holy Spirit and not sin against the Father if they are the same person?

How the can the Holy Spirit command anything if it is just a force and not a person?

[Cal_Minian]

I did respond to it. It concluded saying that the Holy spirit was god's projected energy and active FORCE. you are back where you started.

Just keep dodging. everyone reading this can see what you are doing. Maybe one day it will sink in and you will realize that the Holy Spirit is not only God but a person of the Godhead. Your own words betray that even you think of the Holy Spirit as a person as well as God.

So do you want to answer my questions or not?

How can you blaspheme or sin against the Holy Spirit and not sin against the Father if they are the same person?

How the can the Holy Spirit command anything if it is just a force and not a person?

You selectively quoted from our literature but have not addressed our entire teaching. The holy spirit is a metaphor for the activity of the Father and is therefore sinning against the Father.

This principle is explicitly stated:

ESV 1 Thessalonians 4:6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. 8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

[Sparko]

You selectively quoted from our literature but have not addressed our entire teaching.

I selectively quoted???? It was YOUR stupid quote to begin with!

The holy spirit is a metaphor for the activity of the Father and is therefore sinning against the Father.

exactly. That destroys your whole doctrine and you don't see it.

If you can blaspheme against the Father and be forgiven, and yet you can't blaspheme against the holy spirit and be forgiven, then the holy spirit is NOT the Father. and yet according to the watchtower it is his active force and not a person. You have a contradiction.

and you never said how the Holy Spirit can command anything.

Usually you are at no loss for words but this time all you can do is quote some lines from a watchtower article and dodge questions. that alone is pretty revealing.

[Cal_Minian]

I selectively quoted???? It was YOUR stupid quote to begin with!

exactly. That destroys your whole doctrine and you don't see it.

If you can blaspheme against the Father and be forgiven, and yet you can't blaspheme against the holy spirit and be forgiven, then the holy spirit is NOT the Father. and yet according to the watchtower it is his active force and not a person. You have a contradiction.

and you never said how the Holy Spirit can command anything.

Usually you are at no loss for words but this time all you can do is quote some lines from a watchtower article and dodge questions. that alone is pretty revealing.

Your proof-text does not mention sinning against the Father. You presume a particular sense for the Greek word PAS, but it is by no means the only sense for that word. You have a very weak argument. In addition you continue to pit parallel verses against each other instead of harmonizing them. In the one example a specific contrast is made between sinning against the holy spirit and the Son. In the other what is reported is the seriousness of sinning against the spirit compared to other non-specified sins. That is harmonizing the two passages. In addition this harmonization complements JW theology. In contrast, it does not make any sense whatsoever for a Trinitarian to distinguish between sinning against one person over another if they are all equal.

Finally, since you appear to agree that sinning against the spirit is a metaphor for sinning against the Father since he sent his spirit as in

ESV 1 Thessalonians 4:6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. 8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to

you can put your straw-man argument to rest for good which attempts to argue against a mere caricature of our teaching on the holy spirit.