Rewatching Star Wars

[rogue06]

That video was hilarious and highlights the problem with so many Hollywood sword fights


lukes-lightsaber.jpg

[One Bad Pig]

But those lightsaber fights, man.

That's what I was referring to.

[JonathanL]

But those lightsaber fights, man.

Fixed it for you.

[Teallaura]

I like the light saber fights. Wielding a light saber shouldn't look the same as wielding a 15 lb sword.

[Zymologist]

That's what I was referring to.

Yeah, I like them a whole lot less now than when I first saw them, years ago.

Another observation: there was way too much superfluous flipping in the prequels. Like when they encounter Dooku in episode 3, and he flips off the platform toward them. Dumb. It would have been way better if he'd just casually walked down the steps.

[rogue06]

I like the light saber fights. Wielding a light saber shouldn't look the same as wielding a 15 lb sword.

Not too familiar with 15 lb swords (although I have a 12 lb one that was made to be especially heavy purely for work out purposes). As arguably the 20th century's leading medieval arms expert Ewart Oakeshott once explained, "Medieval Swords are neither unwieldably heavy nor all alike - the average weight of any one of normal size is between 2.5 lb. and 3.5 lbs. Even the big hand-and-a-half 'war' swords rarely weigh more than 4.5 lbs."

Likewise, the less scholarly source, Lillian and Fred Funcken's The Age of Chivalry (Arms and Uniforms) Part 3 notes that "the sword was, in fact, surprisingly light·.the average weight of swords from the 10th to the 15th centuries was 1.3 kg, while in the 16th century it was 0.9 kg. Even the heavier bastard swords which were used only by second-grade fighting men did not exceed 1.6 kg, while the horse swords known as 'hand-and-a-half' swords weighed 1.8 kg on average. When due allowances are made, these surprisingly low figures also hold good for the enormous two-hand sword, which was traditionally only wielded by 'true Hercules.' Yet it seldom weighed more than 3 kg." That last figure is equivalent to 6.6 lbs.

Paul Wagner and Christopher Thompson's article on the massive two-handed Scottish claymore in SPADA 2: Anthology of Swordsmanship (edited by Stephen Hand), relay a 1772 account by Thomas Pennant in which he described a sword seen on his visit to the island of Raasay (between the Isle of Skye and the mainland of northeastern Scotland) as being "an unwieldy weapon, two inches broad, doubly edged; the length of the blade three feet seven inches; of the handle, fourteen inches; of a plain transverse guard, one foot; the weight six pounds and a half." Most experts place the weight of the average claymore at about a pound less.

Probably the heaviest swords were the ceremonial "bearing swords" or "parade swords" which had no real practical application and were much heavier than battle swords weighed roughly 10 lbs. with perhaps the heaviest specimen dating from the 15th cent. and kept in the Tower of London weighing a little under 14˝ lbs.

[Adrift]

Not too familiar with 15 lb swords (although I have a 12 lb one that was made to be especially heavy purely for work out purposes). As arguably the 20th century's leading medieval arms expert Ewart Oakeshott once explained, "Medieval Swords are neither unwieldably heavy nor all alike - the average weight of any one of normal size is between 2.5 lb. and 3.5 lbs. Even the big hand-and-a-half 'war' swords rarely weigh more than 4.5 lbs."

Likewise, the less scholarly source, Lillian and Fred Funcken's The Age of Chivalry (Arms and Uniforms) Part 3 notes that "the sword was, in fact, surprisingly light·.the average weight of swords from the 10th to the 15th centuries was 1.3 kg, while in the 16th century it was 0.9 kg. Even the heavier bastard swords which were used only by second-grade fighting men did not exceed 1.6 kg, while the horse swords known as 'hand-and-a-half' swords weighed 1.8 kg on average. When due allowances are made, these surprisingly low figures also hold good for the enormous two-hand sword, which was traditionally only wielded by 'true Hercules.' Yet it seldom weighed more than 3 kg." That last figure is equivalent to 6.6 lbs.

Paul Wagner and Christopher Thompson's article on the massive two-handed Scottish claymore in SPADA 2: Anthology of Swordsmanship (edited by Stephen Hand), relay a 1772 account by Thomas Pennant in which he described a sword seen on his visit to the island of Raasay (between the Isle of Skye and the mainland of northeastern Scotland) as being "an unwieldy weapon, two inches broad, doubly edged; the length of the blade three feet seven inches; of the handle, fourteen inches; of a plain transverse guard, one foot; the weight six pounds and a half." Most experts place the weight of the average claymore at about a pound less.

Probably the heaviest swords were the ceremonial "bearing swords" or "parade swords" which had no real practical application and were much heavier than battle swords weighed roughly 10 lbs. with perhaps the heaviest specimen dating from the 15th cent. and kept in the Tower of London weighing a little under 14˝ lbs.

Pretty sure this is supposed to be the heaviest sword, and it's clearly not for decoration

[Cerebrum123]

Pretty sure this is supposed to be the heaviest sword, and it's clearly not for decoration

It's original owner never used it because " Use leads to wear, tear, and rust. That, and I'm cheap".

[Darth Ovious]

[rogue06]

Pretty sure this is supposed to be the heaviest sword, and it's clearly not for decoration

Looks like a pen knife in comparison

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[Adrift]

So on a serious note (sorta kinda), you seem to know a bit about swords and sword fighting technique. I've heard that early movie sword fights, while fairly dull by today's standards, were at least relatively accurate, and that sort of disappeared with the post-Matrix, Yuen Woo-ping inspired wire-fu martial arts showing up all over the place. People gotta have their flips, and wild swings. I thought the Bond movie Die Another Day was atrocious, but it does have one redeeming moment with the sword fight.

Any thoughts on it?

[Teallaura]

Not too familiar with 15 lb swords (although I have a 12 lb one that was made reially heavy purely for work out purposes). As arguably the 20th century's leading medieval arms expert Ewart Oakeshott once explained, "Medieval Swords are neither unwieldably heavy nor all alike - the average weight of any one of normal size is between 2.5 lb. and 3.5 lbs. Even the big hand-and-a-half 'war' swords rarely weigh more than 4.5 lbs."

Likewise, the less scholarly source, Lillian and Fred Funcken's The Age of Chivalry (Arms and Uniforms) Part 3 notes that "the sword was, in fact, surprisingly light·.the average weight of swords from the 10th to the 15th centuries was 1.3 kg, while in the 16th century it was 0.9 kg. Even the heavier bastard swords which were used only by second-grade fighting men did not exceed 1.6 kg, while the horse swords known as 'hand-and-a-half' swords weighed 1.8 kg on average. When due allowances are made, these surprisingly low figures also hold good for the enormous two-hand sword, which was traditionally only wielded by 'true Hercules.' Yet it seldom weighed more than 3 kg." That last figure is equivalent to 6.6 lbs.

Paul Wagner and Christopher Thompson's article on the massive two-handed Scottish claymore in SPADA 2: Anthology of Swordsmanship (edited by Stephen Hand), relay a 1772 account by Thomas Pennant in which he described a sword seen on his visit to the island of Raasay (between the Isle of Skye and the mainland of northeastern Scotland) as being "an unwieldy weapon, two inches broad, doubly edged; the length of the blade three feet seven inches; of the handle, fourteen inches; of a plain transverse guard, one foot; the weight six pounds and a half." Most experts place the weight of the average claymore at about a pound less.

Probably the heaviest swords were the ceremonial "bearing swords" or "parade swords" which had no real practical application and were much heavier than battle swords weighed roughly 10 lbs. with perhaps the heaviest specimen dating from the 15th cent. and kept in the Tower of London weighing a little under 14˝ lbs.

I have handled mainly bastard and hand and a half which are heavy. That may be because they are reproduction but I doubt it. The claymore I handled was a good bit more than six pounds.

[rogue06]

So on a serious note (sorta kinda), you seem to know a bit about swords and sword fighting technique. I've heard that early movie sword fights, while fairly dull by today's standards, were at least relatively accurate, and that sort of disappeared with the post-Matrix, Yuen Woo-ping inspired wire-fu martial arts showing up all over the place. People gotta have their flips, and wild swings. I thought the Bond movie Die Another Day was atrocious, but it does have one redeeming moment with the sword fight.

Any thoughts on it?

It was a mixed bag. Often sword battles in the past consisted of the incredibly irritating swing at the head (or above it) to be blocked, followed by swing at the ankles to be blocked repeated ad nauseam. All they did was bang their swords together, often edge on edge, which while making a satisfying clanking noise is utterly useless. While this was done in the Star Wars movies it was much more painfully obvious in some of the older movies. Still, some of the old stars were actually quite accomplished with a blade. Basil Rathbone, Tyrone Power and later Guy Williams were actually fencing masters.

The purpose of a Hollywood sword fight is to be entertaining which means unnecessarily flashy and often downright silly. If you want to get a taste for how such battles really went watch any documentary on the topic featuring weapon historian Mike Loades (he did a good deal of stuff that was aired on the History Channel). There are several others but I've always enjoyed his enthusiasm for the topic.

The point is that sword fighting from the medieval period does not resemble modern fencing but was incredibly brutal, ferocious and violent. And every part of the sword was used not to mention a variety of kicks, punches, locking maneuvers and trips. It was dirty fighting par excellence.

[rogue06]

I have handled mainly bastard and hand and a half which are heavy. That may be because they are reproduction but I doubt it. The claymore I handled was a good bit more than six pounds.

It may have been that they were the ceremonial or parade swords that I mentioned.

[Teallaura]

It may have been that they were the ceremonial or parade swords that I mentioned.

Possibly but I don't think so. The figure I mentioned actually came from Bandecoot. He mentioned once how much the swords his reenactment group weighed, although he said fourteen, as I recall.