So... So what?

[FlimFlamboyant]

To preface, I don't consider myself to be "Trinitarian" in the classical sense, though I do believe that the Father and Son are equal, and that they are one. I have no issue with calling Jesus "God", though I don't like to debate on whether he's a person, a manifestation, or any of the other hundreds of issues that I don't think we're equipped to understand in the first place.

What would like to know from the JW camp, however, is... So what? I see people railing against the deity of Christ all of the time, citing verse after verse that supposedly prove that he's merely a "means" by which Jehovah saves. However, what I haven't seen expressed is the reason behind this. What I mean by that is not "because this verse says he isn't", but what is there about the concept of the deity of Christ that the JW perceives as damaging? What important tenet of doctrine would supposedly be rendered invalid if Jesus Christ really is God in flesh?

[NonTrinitarian]

To preface, I don't consider myself to be "Trinitarian" in the classical sense, though I do believe that the Father and Son are equal, and that they are one. I have no issue with calling Jesus "God", though I don't like to debate on whether he's a person, a manifestation, or any of the other hundreds of issues that I don't think we're equipped to understand in the first place.

What would like to know from the JW camp, however, is... So what? I see people railing against the deity of Christ all of the time, citing verse after verse that supposedly prove that he's merely a "means" by which Jehovah saves. However, what I haven't seen expressed is the reason behind this. What I mean by that is not "because this verse says he isn't", but what is there about the concept of the deity of Christ that the JW perceives as damaging? What important tenet of doctrine would supposedly be rendered invalid if Jesus Christ really is God in flesh?

Assume he is not, because I perceive this thread isn't about whether he is or is not. If he is not God, how dishonoring it is to God to say that a creature is His equal. And it dishonors Jesus because he said "If you love me, you will believe my words because from the Father I have heard them." So if he never said he was God, and we say he did, then we are dishonoring him and not believing what he says.

If I said "Moses is God", would you say "so what?" or would you try to defend your position that he is not? Why would you try to defend the position he is not? Your answer will be similar to why we argue against Jesus being God.

[FlimFlamboyant]

Assume he is not, because I perceive this thread isn't about whether he is or is not. If he is not God, how dishonoring it is to God to say that a creature is His equal. And it dishonors Jesus because he said "If you love me, you will believe my words because from the Father I have heard them." So if he never said he was God, and we say he did, then we are dishonoring him and not believing what he says.

And that would affect what? What would be the end result of this that makes you so zealous to convince people that he is not?

If I said "Moses is God", would you say "so what?" or would you try to defend your position that he is not?

No, because he clearly is not. The differences in nature between Moses and Jesus Christ are beyond fair comparison.

[NonTrinitarian]

And that would affect what? What would be the end result of this that makes you so zealous to convince people that he is not?

People's lives. I care if people are going to be destroyed, which is why I try to correct them.

No, because he clearly is not. The differences in nature between Moses and Jesus Christ are beyond fair comparison.

Is this thread about WHY we are against Jesus being identified as God or are you now trying to turn this thread in to an argument that he is God?

[FlimFlamboyant]

People's lives. I care if people are going to be destroyed, which is why I try to correct them.

So your contention is that God is going to destroy people who dishonor him by considering Jesus to be his equal?

Is this thread about WHY we are against Jesus being identified as God or are you now trying to turn this thread in to an argument that he is God?

Uh, I was merely responding to your question regarding Moses.

[NonTrinitarian]

So your contention is that God is going to destroy people who dishonor him by considering Jesus to be his equal?

Worship of God is to be given to know one else. I'm not going to judge but I do know what the Bible says on that. So yes, that is my contention though I'll let a higher authority make the final decision.

[FlimFlamboyant]

Worship of God is to be given to know one else. I'm not going to judge but I do know what the Bible says on that. So yes, that is my contention though I'll let a higher authority make the final decision.

Ok, so how is this different from sins such as murder, lying, idolatry, etc., which are actually declared by the Bible to be punishable by destruction (Rev 21:8)? Is such ignorance not also paid for by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God?

[NonTrinitarian]

Ok, so how is this different from sins such as murder, lying, idolatry, etc., which are actually declared by the Bible to be punishable by destruction (Rev 21:8)? Is such ignorance not also paid for by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God?

No. I am not a Universal Salvation believer. I mean, think about your question and what you just said. You admit the Bible says those things are punishable by destruction then turn around and at least appear to say that those people will be saved by Christ's sacrifice. Do you believe the Bible or not?

Will they be destroyed or not?

[FlimFlamboyant]

No. I am not a Universal Salvation believer.

I didn't say you were. I'm not a Universalist either, for that matter.

I mean, think about your question and what you just said. You admit the Bible says those things are punishable by destruction then turn around and at least appear to say that those people will be saved by Christ's sacrifice. Do you believe the Bible or not?

The point I was trying to make is; if man can be saved from the consequences of his murders, lies, idolatries, etc. through the sacrifice that Christ made, why can he not also be saved from the consequences of his trinitarian beliefs by the same sacrifice?

[Cal_Minian]

To preface, I don't consider myself to be "Trinitarian" in the classical sense, though I do believe that the Father and Son are equal, and that they are one. I have no issue with calling Jesus "God", though I don't like to debate on whether he's a person, a manifestation, or any of the other hundreds of issues that I don't think we're equipped to understand in the first place.

What would like to know from the JW camp, however, is... So what? I see people railing against the deity of Christ all of the time, citing verse after verse that supposedly prove that he's merely a "means" by which Jehovah saves. However, what I haven't seen expressed is the reason behind this. What I mean by that is not "because this verse says he isn't", but what is there about the concept of the deity of Christ that the JW perceives as damaging? What important tenet of doctrine would supposedly be rendered invalid if Jesus Christ really is God in flesh?

Dear Flam,
JWs also call Jesus God in the same sense we call Moses God.

NWT Exodus 7:1 Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: "See, I have made you God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.

There are differences between Moses and Jesus and Jesus is a representative of God in more ways than was Moses, but it is in the same sense. One differences is that Jesus pre-existed as a spirit before he became man and Moses did not. That difference does not change the sense of elohim/QEOS (God).

We do not believe that the Son and the Father are the same BEING as do Trinitarians. You and I are both human beings but we are not the same human being.

We do not believe that Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man at the same time. That belief is also a requirement for being a Trinitarian.

There are likely other differences but that should suffice.

Regards,
Cal Minian

[FlimFlamboyant]

Dear Flam,
JWs also call Jesus God in the same sense we call Moses God.

NWT Exodus 7:1 Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: "See, I have made you God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.

There are differences between Moses and Jesus and Jesus is a representative of God in more ways than was Moses, but it is in the same sense. One differences is that Jesus pre-existed as a spirit before he became man and Moses did not. That difference does not change the sense of elohim/QEOS (God).

So what would you say to the question I posed? What is there about the concept of the deity of Christ that the JW perceives as damaging? What important tenet of doctrine would supposedly be rendered invalid if one assumes that Jesus Christ is God in flesh?

[Cal_Minian]

So what would you say to the question I posed? What is there about the concept of the deity of Christ that the JW perceives as damaging? What important tenet of doctrine would supposedly be rendered invalid if one assumes that Jesus Christ is God in flesh?

It is not the concept of "deity" of Christ that is not Scriptural. It is the concept that he is the same BEING as God. It also violates strict monotheism to worship anyone but the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

JWs are MonoPersonalTheists. Trinitarians are PolyPersonTheists.

Trinitarians dilute the absolute monotheism of God to a mere relative "monotheism."

[FlimFlamboyant]

It is not the concept of "deity" of Christ that is not Scriptural. It is the concept that he is the same BEING as God. It also violates strict monotheism to worship anyone but the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

JWs are MonoPersonalTheists. Trinitarians are PolyPersonTheists.

Trinitarians dilute the absolute monotheism of God to a mere relative "monotheism."

So, how does that answer the question I asked? What are the consequences of "diluting the absolute monothism of God to a mere relative monotheism" that make you so zealous to attack the concept of the trinity?

[NonTrinitarian]

The point I was trying to make is; if man can be saved from the consequences of his murders, lies, idolatries, etc. through the sacrifice that Christ made, why can he not also be saved from the consequences of his trinitarian beliefs by the same sacrifice?

A murderer, liar, etc can be saved by Christ's sacrifice, IF they repent, turn around and quit doing the unclean thing. Same with the Trinity. If they quit believing the lie, they can be saved.

[Cal_Minian]

So, how does that answer the question I asked? What are the consequences of "diluting the absolute monothism of God to a mere relative monotheism" that make you so zealous to attack the concept of the trinity?

Because this is a sin that will never be forgiven (unless one repents and changes) See Deut 5:7. To do this would be to show hatred for the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

ASV Deuteronomy 5:7 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 8 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 9 thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I, Jehovah, thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity [bringing the punishment] of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me;

Regards,
Cal Minian