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Thread: The Unitarian

  1. #51
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I believe I have been misunderstood.
    Such things happen. See below where you misread me concerning the spread of Christianity in its first 30 years which culminated in Nero's persecution of them...

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The majority of Jews were Palestinian Monotheistic Jews...
    Well at least those living in Palestine and there is secular debate concerning the various "political" camps of Jews in Palestine. It is documented there was a ground swell towards secularisation (hellenisation) of the Jewish apparatus in the time of Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The majority of Jews were Palestinian Monotheistic Jews as demonstrated by the response and misunderstanding to Jesus in the testimony of the NT.
    According to A.John there were many Pharisees and others of the Jewish elite that believed in and were supportive of Jesus but weren't always public about it, they fearing reprisals from the Temple. At Luke 13:31 we read of Pharisees warning Jesus to flee as Herod was out to get him. Then in Luke 14 we read that in the days before his crucifixion Jesus attended a Sabbath lunch at the home of a prestigious Pharisee. According to the NT the Temple authorities (what A.John means by Jew) didn't misunderstand Jesus. they feared him as a threat to their commercial & political enterprises.

    As we know from secular history the Temple had been badly corrupted since Jonathan Maccabee claimed the high priesthood under the pretense of the order of Melchizedek. By Jesus' time the Temple and priesthood was 100% corrupt. Especially whilst it was under the control of Annas the high priest (who had been dethroned by the Romans for his indiscriminate execution of "heretics"). In the Talmud, Annas and his family of high priests (cp. Luke 3:2; John 18:13,24; Acts 4:8) are cursed in particularly strong terms. They had the commerce of the Temple completely sewn up - from supply of the sacrifices (farming & retail) to money changing (foreign currency couldn't be used to purchase the sacrifices, one had to buy shekels from the Temple).

    According to A.John it is the high priest Annas that trialed Jesus (even though the Sanhedrin had been illegally assembled) and then had him taken to the Roman delegate, the high priest Caiaphas (Annas' son-in-law). Because of Annas' lack of justice, the Romans had prohibited the Jews from conducting executions. So Caiaphas had to appeal to Pilate for the "Sanhedrin's" verdict to be carried out.

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The Jews that were attracted to Jesus in Asia Minor were most likely heavily influenced by Hellenistic thought, as was Paul and possibly a minority of Jews in Palestine.
    Throughout the semitic world (Egypt, Palestine, Parthia, Asia Minor etc) there was expectation of the Messiah about to come. A.John highlights this in Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman (John 4:25-26 "The woman said to Him: I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). When He comes, He will tell us all things. Jesus said to her: I who speak to you am He"). Of great interest to me is the NT witness identifies that Jesus never directly revealed himself as the Messiah to any Jew, including his disciples. For them, as the story of A.Peter reveals, recognition of Jesus as the "Christ, the Son of God" had to be a matter of revelation by God the Father.

    The Rabbi I've encountered who have studied the NT, consider it a book written with a very Jewish mindset, so on that basis I contest your appraisal. Undoubtedly, as time progressed and the Church had to contend with the educated classes, it had to adopt the paradigms of "scientific" language. To us the arguments of Tertullian, Justin etc might seem far fetched (especially if you are blinkered to their argument/s). However, one has to understand that intellectualism in their time was about rhetoric - rhetoricians were highly paid professionals in their day, and it is these types that the early fathers were responding to (not the uneducated lay person).

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I believe you dating of Nero is incorrect. Nero was not born in 30 AD
    I never said he was!!! I said "you should know from historical evidence (non NT), there were significant Christian communities in the major Roman cities and throughout the trading routes of the Aegean and the Mediterranean within 30 years of Jesus crucifixion. Hence Nero's and successive emperors persecutions..."

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    ...that with ruled reigned 54 – 68 AD. Most Christians were converted Romans from Paul's travels through Rome.
    I'm not aware of A.Paul ever traveling through Rome. He had intended to go there, to raise funds for an expedition to Spain but was interrupted in his mission by king Aggripa, and because of A.Paul's appeal to Ceasar was sent to Rome (see Acts 25-28). He was under house arrest until his martyrdom (cp. Acts 28:16,30).

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I do not disagree with this, but by far the majority of Christians by the time of Nero, and subject to persecution were converted Romans from the travels of Paul.
    Secular history proves your assumption wrong. Well past the time of Nero, Christians were viewed by the Romans as just another Jewish sect (which is why, in its early days, Christians had relative religious freedom in the empire). For example: when Claudius expelled all Jews from Rome, Christians were included (See the Roman historian Suetonius and Acts 18:2).

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The issues of the politics of Israel, ISIS/ISIL/ the Taliban, and the wars of the Middle East were not a question of Monotheism.
    You are 100% wrong on that score as history, modern and ancient demonstrates. Take for example Moses' policy of genocide...

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Violence among religions has a long brutal history, wars and persecution going back to the Crusades, history of Christianity and Judaism going back to the earliest known records. This is not an effective argument either way.
    True but historically it is an incontestable argument. The greatest outrages on humanity have been instigated by rabid monotheists (not all but the fanatics that seem to permeate those societies). The history of religious brutality in Europe was about politics, especially the Frankish aspirations eg: when the Franks invaded Spain and began to persecute those Jews that had aligned themselves with the Moslems, and became extended to anyone that opposed the Franks (Jew or Christian) many famous Jews fled to Rome for protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The question of Monotheism was never an issue in the persecution of the Baha'is in the past nor in the present.
    Hmmm. Imu, the followers of Islam consider Baha'i an apostate religion. If they follow the Quran they tolerate Christians and Jews, but are obligated to persecute the Baha'i and like.

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The Trinity is not the result of a Biblical metaphor.
    I never said it was. The Biblical metaphor I gave concerned Christians as the bride of Christ and their adoption by God the Father.

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Moses proposed nothing more than Monotheism.
    He also smashed YHWH's commandments to pieces and imposed his own ordinances on the people (most of which have proved defective). When YHWH told Moses he would make him God to Pharaoh and aaron would be his prophet, he seems to have taken the idea to heart and extended the premise. Everything he touched became corrupted incredibly quickly eg: the establishment of the Judges, the hereditary priesthood but especially the hereditary high priesthood.

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It is possible that an interpretation of the book of Exodus can support Henotheism, but NOT a Trinitarian belief in God.
    I can accept that. Although, it is what the Jewish Aramaic Targums identify as the Memra of Aallah = the Word of God (cp. John 1:1) that spoke to Moses and gave his name as "Ehyeh" = "YHWH" (Ex 3:14), and declared that he was the God of Moses' forefathers, "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob".

    In early Christian literature the Son of God, the Logos who became incarnated and was named Jesus (Yeshua), was he who spoke to Moses and supped with Abraham...
    Last edited by apostoli; 08-19-2015 at 10:02 PM.

  2. #52
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorching Wizard View Post
    Judaism generally doesn't view Christianity as a cult. A cult is a organization that is destructive to its own member through brainwashing, isolation from friends and family, and stealing all their property. Christianity is just a completely different religion from Judaism, the same as Islam is.
    It is worse, Judaism considers Christianity as a heresy, and Jesus a heretic.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Judaism

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Judaism



    Minim

    Hilchot Teshuva Chapter 3 Halacha 7

    Five peoples who can be classified as heretics (Hebrew "Minim"):
    One who denies the existence of God or the ruler of the world
    One who says there are two or more rulers of the world
    One who accepts there is one Master of the world but maintains He has a body or a form
    One who denies that He is the sole First Being and Creator of all existence
    One who serves entities that serve as intermediary between him and the eternal Lord such as stars, constellations or any other entity

    According to Hilchot Teshuva 3:6 Minim do not have a portion in the world to come. Their souls are cut off and they are judged for their sins.[1]

    The Birkat haMinim is a malediction on heretics. The belief that the curse was directed at Christians was sometimes cause for persecution of Jews. Modern scholarship has generally evaluated that the Birkat haMinim probably did originally include Jewish Christians before Christianity became markedly a gentile religion

    © Copyright Original Source

    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #53
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It is worse, Judaism considers Christianity as a heresy, and Jesus a heretic.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Judaism

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Judaism



    Minim

    Hilchot Teshuva Chapter 3 Halacha 7

    Five peoples who can be classified as heretics (Hebrew "Minim"):
    One who denies the existence of God or the ruler of the world
    One who says there are two or more rulers of the world
    One who accepts there is one Master of the world but maintains He has a body or a form
    One who denies that He is the sole First Being and Creator of all existence
    One who serves entities that serve as intermediary between him and the eternal Lord such as stars, constellations or any other entity

    According to Hilchot Teshuva 3:6 Minim do not have a portion in the world to come. Their souls are cut off and they are judged for their sins.[1]

    The Birkat haMinim is a malediction on heretics. The belief that the curse was directed at Christians was sometimes cause for persecution of Jews. Modern scholarship has generally evaluated that the Birkat haMinim probably did originally include Jewish Christians before Christianity became markedly a gentile religion

    © Copyright Original Source

    Not necessarily. Jewish attitudes, and Judaism itself, is never as monolithic as you typically represent it. Even as late as the first half of the third century, we find remarkable tolerance of Christians and even Jewish Christians by some, for example, Joshua bev Levi, one of my heros:

    His love of peace likewise prevented him from making any attacks against the "Christian heresy" ("minut") that was then gaining ground. He was tolerant even to the Jewish Christians, though they often annoyed him; and he forbore cursing one of them, pronouncing rather Ps. cxlv. 9, "God's mercies extend over all His creatures" (Ber. 7a; 'Ab. Zarah 4b). His love of justice and his fear lest the innocent should suffer on account of the guilty (Yoma 19b) led him to pronounce against the custom then prevailing of removing from office a reader who, by omitting certain benedictions, had aroused the suspicion of heresy (Yer. Ber. 9c).

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...-joshua-b-levi
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  4. #54
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Yes, the Jews believe in salvation, but they do not believe in a Trinitarian God, nor that Jesus Christ was God incarnate, neither do the Baha'is believe this as a Doctrine defining the nature God, which cannot be defined.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Well, yeah. Because if they did then they would be Christians.
    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I guess you taking the egocentric view that only Christians believe in salvation
    .
    The reality is most Theists (in the broad definition of the word including Buddhists) believe in salvation, but of course different beliefs define it differently.
    Um... no. But I would hope that I would actually have to spell it out for you that if Jews or Baha'is believed in a Trinitarian God and that Jesus Christ was God incarnate that they would by definition be Christians.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  5. Amen Scorching Wizard amen'd this post.
  6. #55
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Not necessarily. Jewish attitudes, and Judaism itself, is never as monolithic as you typically represent it. Even as late as the first half of the third century, we find remarkable tolerance of Christians and even Jewish Christians by some, for example, Joshua bev Levi, one of my heros:
    Never intended to describe Judaism as monolithic. In fact the Jews were a very diverse lot in many aspects. In early Christian history Jews and Christians in some ways got along, but this does not represent the view of Judaism and the majority of the Jews in the period, which considered Jesus a heretic, and Christianity a heresy. Any 'remarkable tolerance' of Christians toward faded over time to ethnic cleansing
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. #56
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Um... no. But I would hope that I would actually have to spell it out for you that if Jews or Baha'is believed in a Trinitarian God and that Jesus Christ was God incarnate that they would by definition be Christians.
    Are you dealing in hypothetical fairy tales? Back to reality Turkey. The above does not make sense. Your IFins' are nonsense.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  8. #57
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Are you dealing in hypothetical fairy tales? Back to reality Turkey. The above does not make sense. Your IFins' are nonsense.
    So in Shunyland folks who believe in a Trinitarian God and that Jesus Christ is God incarnate wouldn't be Christian





    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  9. #58
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    In early Christian history Jews and Christians in some ways got along, but this does not represent the view of Judaism and the majority of the Jews in the period, which considered Jesus a heretic, and Christianity a heresy...
    Well that was only true of the corrupt Temple clan. They went on a rampage persecuting the followers of Christ and until his conversion Saul (A.Paul) was the most rabid amoungst them... The Pharisees were accommodating of the followers of Christ (unlike the Temple mob, the Pharisees believed in the theophanies and looked forward to a personal resurrection).

    Consider what is related at Acts 5...

    A.Peter et al were busy healing people in Solomon’s Porch "Then the high priest rose up, and all those who were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with indignation, and laid their hands on the apostles and put them in the common prison...Then the captain went with the officers and brought them [before the Sanhedrin] without violence, for they feared the people, lest they should be stoned. [a.Peter et al were questioned. A.Peter accused the HP et al saying amoungst other things "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered " ]. When [the high priest et al] heard this, they were furious and plotted to kill them. Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded [the temple guard] to put the apostles outside for a little while. [Gamaliel then went on to list all the "messiahs" that had previously risen up and were proved false]. And now I [Gamaliel ] say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God. And [the Sanhedrin] agreed with him..."

    Well, having God on their side the Christians certainly have trumped the Jews. Pity so many of them hadn't harkened to Gamaliel's advice...
    Last edited by apostoli; 08-21-2015 at 08:17 AM.

  10. #59
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It is worse, Judaism considers Christianity as a heresy, and Jesus a heretic.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Judaism

    [cite=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Judaism]
    Your conclusion does not match the linked article.

    The very first sentence reads "Jewish heretics (minim, from minuth Hebrew for "heretic") are Jewish individuals..." Heretics are individual Jews that believe certain things. There isn't a single place in that linked article that says that Judaism considers Christianity to be a heresy. All the references to "he" are to Jews.

    Judaism has never attempted to control the beliefs of non-Jews.
    Last edited by Scorching Wizard; 08-21-2015 at 10:27 AM.

  11. #60
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Are you dealing in hypothetical fairy tales? Back to reality Turkey. The above does not make sense. Your IFins' are nonsense.
    Actually Rogue06's statement is completely accurate.
    if Jews or Baha'is believed in a Trinitarian God and that Jesus Christ was God incarnate that they would by definition be Christians.

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