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Thread: The Unitarian

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Clarification on the view of God and the Trinity from the Baha'i view. The actual reality and nature of Jesus Christ is ultimately unknown and not definable by Doctrine and Dogma. The Baha'i Faith does not accept that Jesus Christ can be described as 'God incarnate.' The belief is more like a spiritual metaphysical relationship between humanity and God found in all religions throughout the history of humanity. The Divine Nature of Jesus Christ as the Son of God is spiritual not physical.
    Thankyou for that. It made me have a think: given my personal humanity is unseeable and unknowable it should be conceived as spirit/spiritual. If we accept the NT saying that "God is spirit", and the Son is homoousios (consubstantial) with his Father, then the Son is also spirit and his relationship with his Father is spiritual. So, imo, it can be said that the Son's incarnation was a matter of "spirit" rather than a metaphysical thingy. So the incarnation involves the intercommunication of the divine and the human "spirit", both encapsulated in a single body of flesh and blood (consider Colossians 2:9).
    Last edited by apostoli; 08-11-2015 at 01:52 AM.

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorching Wizard View Post
    According to Wikipedia, henotheists are defined as the belief in and worship of a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities that may also be served.

    According to the Tanakh, while Jews sometimes accepted other gods, they are never viewed favorably. Worshipping other gods can only be idol-worship. True Judaism has only ever recognized and worships the one G-d.
    Imu, Moses' law etc was lost to the Jews from Joshua to Ezra. Monotheism can only be traced to Ezra. As we can determine from the OT Baal worship was popular amoungst the Israelites.

  3. #13
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli View Post
    Imu, Moses' law etc was lost to the Jews from Joshua to Ezra. Monotheism can only be traced to Ezra. As we can determine from the OT Baal worship was popular amoungst the Israelites.
    There is considerable evidence that before the 'Exile Period' The tribes of Judah were loosely polytheistic tribes of predominately Canaanite influence. This polytheism is reflected in the older origins of some of the texts of the OT. In the period ~1100-600 BCE they developed a more distinct separate pastoral culture in the semiarid hill country than the Canaanites and other tribes, particularly in the Philistine coastal areas and northern Palestine. There still remained a polytheism/henotheism beliefs with Canaanite influence. Time frame here is rather loose. After (possibly during) the exile period the trend is more strongly Monotheist, and this belief system was reinforced as the Torah became compiled in the rough present form we know today, ie the Dead Sea scrolls.

    There remains throughout the Bible the existence of 'other Gods' and a pantheon of Divine figures, but the necessary worship of the only 'One true God' becomes central to the belief.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. #14
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli View Post
    Thankyou for that. It made me have a think: given my personal humanity is unseeable and unknowable it should be conceived as spirit/spiritual. If we accept the NT saying that "God is spirit", and the Son is homoousios (consubstantial) with his Father, then the Son is also spirit and his relationship with his Father is spiritual. So, imo, it can be said that the Son's incarnation was a matter of "spirit" rather than a metaphysical thingy. So the incarnation involves the intercommunication of the divine and the human "spirit", both encapsulated in a single body of flesh and blood (consider Colossians 2:9).
    This is more in line with the Baha'i beliefs and view of NT scripture.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #15
    tWebber
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    Individual Jews have believed all sorts of things, but that doesn't change what Judaism is. We have an unbroken chain of transmission for Torah direct from Moses. Judaism itself has always been monotheistic.

    This henotheistic thing isn't defined well enough to matter to Judaism. For example, I recognize that some people worship a deity named jesus. It is a big leap to then assume that I believe such an entity ever had any existence.

  6. #16
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorching Wizard View Post
    Individual Jews have believed all sorts of things, but that doesn't change what Judaism is. We have an unbroken chain of transmission for Torah direct from Moses. Judaism itself has always been monotheistic.

    This henotheistic thing isn't defined well enough to matter to Judaism. For example, I recognize that some people worship a deity named jesus. It is a big leap to then assume that I believe such an entity ever had any existence.
    NT Christians worship the same G-d as Moses worshipped (see John 4:22 & John 5:46-47). See Gensis 3:22.
    Last edited by 37818; 08-11-2015 at 08:07 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  7. #17
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    NT Christians worship the same G-d as Moses worshipped (see John 4:22 & John 5:46-47). See Gensis 3:22.
    Jews do not believe this is so.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  8. #18
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorching Wizard View Post
    Individual Jews have believed all sorts of things, but that doesn't change what Judaism is. We have an unbroken chain of transmission for Torah direct from Moses. Judaism itself has always been monotheistic.

    This henotheistic thing isn't defined well enough to matter to Judaism. For example, I recognize that some people worship a deity named jesus. It is a big leap to then assume that I believe such an entity ever had any existence.
    Unfortunately, history refutes you as any educated Jew would be happy to advise you. Take King David for instance: Either he was ignorant of Moses' ordinances or he just ignored them! After all, he upsurped the high priesthood making himself high priest even though he was not a Cohan. He wasn't even a Levite! Hence the Melchizedek claim. David didn't even know how to carry the Ark. And when YHWH struck down Uzzah, David cursed YHWH (2 Samuel 6) Scripture even has it that David was worshipped in equivalence to YHWH (see 1 Chron 29:12 "and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king". (KJV)).

    Apart from this we have the witness of 2 Kings 17 especially vs34. Even after the Assyrian exile and return, they continued to worship other gods...

  9. #19
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    This is more in line with the Baha'i beliefs and view of NT scripture.
    I thought it might be...or rather hoped it would be. As a youth one my friends had a brother-in-law who was high up in the Hare Krishna movement. From him I learnt of "maya" (?) = "all things material are an illusion" (?) It was so may decades ago I've forgotten the nitty gritty but I have a vague recollection of the concepts, and I don't see them as in conflict with Christian sensibilities...

    Here is an interesting article arguing from Quantum Physics titled "The Illusion of Matter: Our Physical Material World Isn’t Really Physical At All"...
    http://www.collective-evolution.com/...ysical-at-all/

  10. #20
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Jews do not believe this is so.
    Do not believe salvation is of Judaism?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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