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Thread: The Unitarian

  1. #21
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Jews do not believe this is so.
    True.

  2. #22
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli View Post
    Unfortunately, history refutes you as any educated Jew would be happy to advise you.
    ROFL. I'm probably the only educated Jew that you know. In any case, this is way off topic and I'm not going to respond to it. I just gave an example for that henotheistic concept.

  3. #23
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorching Wizard View Post
    True.
    So you do not believe the first century Jews who were apart of the founding of Christianity believed the Torah?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  4. #24
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Do not believe salvation is of Judaism?
    Yes, the Jews believe in salvation, but they do not believe in a Trinitarian God, nor that Jesus Christ was God incarnate, neither do the Baha'is believe this as a Doctrine defining the nature God, which cannot be defined.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-13-2015 at 12:20 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #25
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apostoli View Post
    I thought it might be...or rather hoped it would be. As a youth one my friends had a brother-in-law who was high up in the Hare Krishna movement. From him I learnt of "maya" (?) = "all things material are an illusion" (?) It was so may decades ago I've forgotten the nitty gritty but I have a vague recollection of the concepts, and I don't see them as in conflict with Christian sensibilities...
    I do not see a necessary conflict between different religious views of the nature of human existence, because to a certain extent all these world views represent a limited human cultural view of the nature of God and our physical existences. There are elements of the truth of our spiritual reality in all the religions as we evolve universally as spiritual beings. The first mistake individual religion, churches and beliefs make is their view is the only possible true view of the nature of our spiritual and physical reality.

    Here is an interesting article arguing from Quantum Physics titled "The Illusion of Matter: Our Physical Material World Isn’t Really Physical At All"...
    http://www.collective-evolution.com/...ysical-at-all/
    The present scientific view of the nature of the Quantum World is a very interesting topic, but I do not believe it can be concluded that the physical world is an 'illusion' as being absolutely nothing as the Vedic (Hindu) proposes based on this.

    What is described as the illusion of the nature of our physical world is being actually physical in nature as we perceive it. The underlying reality of the physical world is the more nebulous and still physical Quantum World.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-13-2015 at 12:28 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  6. #26
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Yes, the Jews believe in salvation, but they do not believe in a Trinitarian God, nor that Jesus Christ was God incarnate, neither do the Baha'is believe this as a Doctrine defining the nature God, which cannot be defined.
    Well, yeah. Because if they did then they would be Christians.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    You're by far the worst poster on TWeb -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  7. Amen Scorching Wizard, 37818 amen'd this post.
  8. #27
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    So you do not believe the first century Jews who were apart of the founding of Christianity believed the Torah?
    off-topic.

  9. #28
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Yes, the Jews believe in salvation...
    off-.... aargh!

    Judaism and Christianity have two completely different definitions for this word. In Judaism, the Torah only uses this word in the national sense, as in national salvation from war. Whereas in Christianity, the word salvation is individual and ties in to their personal sin.

  10. Amen apostoli amen'd this post.
  11. #29
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Well, yeah. Because if they did then they would be Christians.
    I guess you taking the egocentric view that only Christians believe in salvation
    .
    The reality is most Theists (in the broad definition of the word including Buddhists) believe in salvation, but of course different beliefs define it differently.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-13-2015 at 06:57 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  12. #30
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorching Wizard View Post
    off-.... aargh!

    Judaism and Christianity have two completely different definitions for this word. In Judaism, the Torah only uses this word in the national sense, as in national salvation from war. Whereas in Christianity, the word salvation is individual and ties in to their personal sin.
    I did not say what the definition of salvation Christians use is what the Jews believe in, but it is actually variable among Jews as to what being saved means, but the following is consistent with many Jews:

    Source: http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/12-37.html



    What is the Jewish view of Salvation, i.e., how a person from a given religion is ''saved''?

    Answer:

    This is an important question. It is important to look at the questions that religions ask, as well as the ones they don't ask. In this case, one must start with the awareness that salvation is not a Jewish concept, as it implies a focus on the afterlife, which is not significant focus of Judaism. In particular, the Christian view of the question just doesn't work, for it implies a notion of "hell" for those that aren't saved. Jews believe that people are supposed to do the best they can at being good. We do this because it is the right thing to do—any personal gain is a side-effect. In fact, focusing on issues of reward and punishment to some extent mitigates the good one is doing by tainting it with selfish motives.

    Note also that Jews do not assume that God assesses people on some absolute scale. Jews believe that God expects you to do the best you have with what you have— including upbringing, innate abilities, and the situations you find yourself in—and you have the power to perfect yourself. Even on this relative scale, though, no one wastes their entire potential, or fully utilizes every opportunity. So, to whatever extent one does what they can, they enjoy its effects in the World to Come.

    But again, Judaism is about being good to be good and to have a healthy relationship with God, man, and oneself—not to be saved. The role of Jewish law is to provide tools to learn how to do that, and values that one ought acquire. Judaism teaches that God gave us these laws because there are subtleties to the ideal that can not be conveyed in broader strokes. We therefore learn from the subtleties of the ritual, and the nuances of the inter-personal laws. Often very fundamental ideas about Jewish values can emerge from same arcane bit that one would think would never have found application in practice.

    Last, there are two sorts of law: there is the covenant at Sinai, which God made with the Jews (and the other Israelites, the ancestors of the Northern Kingdom) to define the role of Jews in His plan. All Judaism asks of Jews is to follow the teachings of God as given in that covenant (as understood by their particular movement)—for the traditional Jew, this means to follow the laws given in the written and oral Torah. The other law is the covenant God made with Noah and his descendants. We believe that this is simpler law that non-Jews are expected to follow as well.

    © Copyright Original Source



    http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq...faq/12-37.html

    Back somewhat to the topic most Unitarians believe in the 'Salvation of Humanity' is by humanist ideals, principles and teachings exemplified by the Humanist Manifesto.

    Some if not many Jews embrace the 'Humanist Salvation' as far as the 'Salvation of Humanity.'
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-13-2015 at 07:12 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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