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Thread: Awkward questions, especially for preterists

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    tWebber
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    Awkward questions, especially for preterists

    I am a firm believer in the Socratic method of asking awkward questions to one's opponent until they are forced to admit to the contradictions and/or inaccuracies in their position. And because I want to be able to pose these questions in no particular order, I will simply pose them as I think of them in this thread.

    First question: Is Isaiah 14 eschatological? If so, was it fulfilled in the past or will it be fulfilled in the future? Who is the King of Babylon/Assyria? What does God mean when He says this man will "be destroyed on the mountains of Israel?"

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    First question: Is Isaiah 14 eschatological? If so, was it fulfilled in the past or will it be fulfilled in the future?
    That prophecy was fulfilled long before Christ.
    Who is the King of Babylon/Assyria?
    Attributed as Nebuchadnezzar, which doesn't seem unlikely.
    What does God mean when He says this man will "be destroyed on the mountains of Israel?"
    defeated, crushed, (literally)trodden underfoot.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  3. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Attributed as Nebuchadnezzar, which doesn't seem unlikely.
    Israel was not freed from bondage in Babylon until after Nebuchadnezzar's grandson was defeated by Cyrus, long after Nebuchadnezzar was dead. Why take up a taunt against a figure long dead?

    defeated, crushed, (literally)trodden underfoot.
    None of these things happened to Nebuchadnezzar on the mountains of Israel.

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    tWebber
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    Awkward question #2: Who do preterists claim the False Prophet was? Clearly he had to be a literal man and cannot be "spiritualized" away, since specific acts are attributed to him as well as a "capture" and relegation to the lake of fire. Awkwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrddddddddd.

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    Israel was not freed from bondage in Babylon until after Nebuchadnezzar's grandson was defeated by Cyrus, long after Nebuchadnezzar was dead.
    True - However, the king in question is not named. There is no reason to discount the dynastic aspect - Nebuchadnezzar was responsible for the exile, and it was his dynasty that was undone.
    Why take up a taunt against a figure long dead?
    Why take up a taunt against anyone dead?

    None of these things happened to Nebuchadnezzar on the mountains of Israel.
    Nor was such a defeat necessary - Babylon's dominion over the mountains and lands of Israel was to be crushed.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    True - However, the king in question is not named. There is no reason to discount the dynastic aspect - Nebuchadnezzar was responsible for the exile, and it was his dynasty that was undone.
    So your answer is that the king in question was Nebuchadnezzar but also not. Yep, you sound like a preterist.

    Why take up a taunt against anyone dead?
    Because his oppression was so harsh and the suffering he caused so great, and the relief caused by his downfall so sweet that the urge to both glorify God and humble "the oppressor" (two sides to the same coin) will be too strong to resist. The Song of Moses, which the 144,000 will sing a new and improved version of, contains a portion rejoicing in the fall of God's enemies, too:

    Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 32:43

    Rejoice, you nations, with his people,
    for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
    he will take vengeance on his enemies
    and make atonement for his land and people.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Nor was such a defeat necessary - Babylon's dominion over the mountains and lands of Israel was to be crushed.
    Nope. An individual's defeat is predicted, not an empire's:

    Scripture Verse: Isaiah 14:24

    The Lord Almighty has sworn,


    “Surely, as I have planned, so it will be,
    and as I have purposed, so it will happen.
    25 I will crush the Assyrian in my land;
    on my mountains I will trample him down.
    His yoke will be taken from my people,
    and his burden removed from their shoulders.”

    © Copyright Original Source


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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    So your answer is that the king in question was Nebuchadnezzar but also not.
    The king of Babylon presided over the Babylonian exile - the identity of the office holder is not particularly relevant: your point?
    Yep, you sound like a preterist.
    Good, so far I am achieving success - I am mounting an argument in favour of a precept that I consider an affront.

    There are solid arguments against preterism, this isn't one of them.


    Because his oppression was so harsh and the suffering he caused so great, and the relief caused by his downfall so sweet that the urge to both glorify God and humble "the oppressor" (two sides to the same coin) will be too strong to resist. The Song of Moses, which the 144,000 will sing a new and improved version of, contains a portion rejoicing in the fall of God's enemies, too:

    Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 32:43

    Rejoice, you nations, with his people,
    for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
    he will take vengeance on his enemies
    and make atonement for his land and people.

    © Copyright Original Source





    Nope. An individual's defeat is predicted, not an empire's:

    Scripture Verse: Isaiah 14:24

    The Lord Almighty has sworn,


    “Surely, as I have planned, so it will be,
    and as I have purposed, so it will happen.
    25 I will crush the Assyrian in my land;
    on my mountains I will trample him down.
    His yoke will be taken from my people,
    and his burden removed from their shoulders.”

    © Copyright Original Source

    The defeat of a person's empire is a personal defeat, viscerally personal.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  9. Amen Littlejoe amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    According to Victor L. Ludlow (Isaiah: Prophet, Seer and Poet; Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1982; 189):

    It is difficult to determine whether Isaiah is prophesying about the destruction of Sennacherib's Assyrian army in 701 B.C. or the defeat of the army of the nations led by King Gog in the last days.... In both cases, the Lord's punishment is felt by the wicked nations of the earth.
    According to W. Cleon Skousen (Isaiah Speaks to Modern Times; Salt Lake City: Ensign Publishing Co., 1984; 204):

    The Lord has not only determined to destroy Babylon in due time, but he has already programmed the means by which a more immediate threat to Israel will be eliminated. This was the Assyrian Empire, which preceded Babylon and was the terror of the world in Isaiah's day. In this verse the King James Version says the Lord will "break" the Assyrians, but in the brass plates it says the Lord will "BRING" the Assyrians into the promised land (2 Nephi 24:25). This makes the rest of the verse more sensible. For it says these Assyrians will pour into the mountains of Israel and tread them under foot (conquer them). It turned out that the Assyrians did not storm the mountains of Judah but only the mountains of Ephraim, where the Ten Tribes were located. These were trodden under foot from around 735 to 721 B.C., when the surviving remnants were carried off to Assyria. There they remained as virtual captives or hostages until Babylon came along in 605 B.C., and virtually annihilated the Assyrian people as a nation. This allowed the Ten Tribes to escape from their Assyrian captors and flee northward over the Caucasus Mountains, where they disappeared and became known as the lost tribes.
    Of course this is all Mormon nonsense.

  11. Amen Obsidian amen'd this post.
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    Is Isaiah 14 eschatological?
    No.
    If so, was it fulfilled in the past or will it be fulfilled in the future?
    Past.
    Who is the King of Babylon/Assyria?
    Tell me why it matters.
    What does God mean when He says this man will "be destroyed on the mountains of Israel?"
    That he would be destroyed? It's a song of taunt, it's hyperbole...
    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    Awkward question #2: Who do preterists claim the False Prophet was? Clearly he had to be a literal man and cannot be "spiritualized" away, since specific acts are attributed to him as well as a "capture" and relegation to the lake of fire. Awkwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrddddddddd.
    The Pagan Priesthood of Rome. Keeping alive emperor worship, and worship of the Roman Gods.
    Last edited by Littlejoe; 08-08-2015 at 03:33 AM.
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    tWebber Pentecost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    According to Victor L. Ludlow (Isaiah: Prophet, Seer and Poet; Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1982; 189):



    According to W. Cleon Skousen (Isaiah Speaks to Modern Times; Salt Lake City: Ensign Publishing Co., 1984; 204):



    Of course this is all Mormon nonsense.
    May I ask why you're choosing to utilize Mormon theologians without noting that they are Mormon, while you self identify as a Christian?
    “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Matthew 3:11

  14. Amen One Bad Pig, John Reece, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.

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