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Thread: Awkward questions, especially for preterists

  1. #21
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    What evidence do you have that this chapter refers to the Babylonian exile?
    Well, yes, I suppose it might not refer to the Babylonian exile, for all that it refers to Babylon's king and the Medes and returning the people of Israel from bondage. A careless reading might even allow someone to believe it is a prophecy for the end times, if he didn't realise that the whole passage begins with chapter 13:1, and didn't notice that the only place being spoken of as being brought to ruin was Babylon, and didn't notice .... .
    It's also a taunt drafted by God specifically to humiliate a certain individual.
    Yes, that individual being the king of Babylon.
    I know you preterists don't think understanding God's word is "particularly relevant" while you assign all manner of arbitrary "symbolism" to the text, but my point is that a carelessness with accurate interpretation is the source of your error.
    Oh the irony.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  2. #22
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    I was waiting for someone to suggest that the king in question was Sennacherib, but he was not destroyed on the mountains of Israel. So it can't be him.
    Actually that was a Mormon that suggested Sennacherib. But they can't always be wrong.

    Take another look at Isaiah 14:25. It didn't say anything about the king being destroyed on the mountains of Israel. It said that the Lord would break (לִשְׁבֹּ֤ר, or crush) Assyria (אַשּׁוּר֙, or Asher) and trample (אַשּׁוּר֙) him (pronoun implied) on God's mountains.

    This actually took place during the lifetime of Isaiah and King Hezekiah. Sennacherib returned to Nineveh, where he was eventually assassinated by two of his sons. Read 2 Kings 19:20-36.

    Unless you believe that "the Assyrian" is symbolism for the king of Assyria. Just remember that carelessness with accurate interpretations can be a source of error.
    Last edited by Faber; 08-08-2015 at 10:05 PM.

  3. Amen Obsidian, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  4. #23
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Well, yes, I suppose it might not refer to the Babylonian exile, for all that it refers to Babylon's king and the Medes and returning the people of Israel from bondage.
    You know people continued to inhabit Babylon after Cyrus conquered it, right? Let me be clearer, what evidence do you have that this chapter refers exclusively to the Babylonian exile, since it obviously refers in part to that as the first "near" fulfillment of the prophecy? The point is that Isaiah 13 and 14 cannot merely refer to the Babylonian exile because there are parts of the prophecy as yet unfulfilled, such as the complete destruction of Babylon and the slaughtering of the king of Assyria on the mountains of Israel.

    A careless reading might even allow someone to believe it is a prophecy for the end times, if he didn't realise that the whole passage begins with chapter 13:1, and didn't notice that the only place being spoken of as being brought to ruin was Babylon, and didn't notice .... . Yes, that individual being the king of Babylon. Oh the irony.
    Which king of Babylon? The one you suggested did not have the worldwide dominion attributed to said king in Isaiah 14, nor was he slaughtered on the mountains of Israel, as the Antichrist, who is the true fulfillment of this passage, will be:

    Scripture Verse: Ezekiel 21

    18 The word of the Lord came to me: 19 “Son of man, mark out two roads for the sword of the king of Babylon to take, both starting from the same country. ...25 “‘You profane and wicked prince of Israel, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax, 26 this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Take off the turban, remove the crown. It will not be as it was: The lowly will be exalted and the exalted will be brought low. 27 A ruin! A ruin! I will make it a ruin! The crown will not be restored until he to whom it rightfully belongs shall come; to him I will give it.’ ... 30 “‘Let the sword [the king of Babylon] return to its sheath.
    In the place where you were created [Israel],
    in the land of your ancestry,
    I will judge you.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Ezekiel 38

    14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog [another name for the Antichrist]: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In that day[an eschatological phrase referring to the "last days"], when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? ... In days to come [another time text referring to the "last days"], Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I am proved holy through you before their eyes. ... 21 I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains [again, judgment comes on the mountains of Israel], declares the Sovereign Lord.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Ezekiel 39

    39 “Son of man, prophesy against Gog and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshek and Tubal. 2 I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. 3 Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. 4 On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals. ... 7 “‘I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel. 8 It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign Lord. This is the day I have spoken of. ... 11 “‘On that day [last days] I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east of the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon Gog.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Revelation 16

    12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. ... 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon [in Israel].

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Revelation 19

    19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh [intentionally brings to mind the fate of Gog's army].

    © Copyright Original Source



    The Antichrist is destined to fall on the mountains of Israel. See what you can find when you actually read God's word?

    Like Christ, the Antichrist has many "types" in Scripture, like Nebuchadnezzar, like Sennacherib, like Pharaoh, like Antiochus Epiphanes, like Nero, but also like Christ, the fulfillment of all the "types" is destined to appear in the last days, leading the worldwide rebellion against God and God's people and he is destined to fall in Israel, the land of his ancestry. Recall that the beast is a king from the ancient past:

    Scripture Verse: Revelation 17

    8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction [another word for destruction is perdition]. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

    © Copyright Original Source



    An ancient Israelite king. One associated with the number 666.

  5. #24
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    Take another look at Isaiah 14:25. It didn't say anything about the king being destroyed on the mountains of Israel. It said that the Lord would break (לִשְׁבֹּ֤ר, or crush) Assyria (אַשּׁוּר֙, or Asher) and trample (אַשּׁוּר֙) him (pronoun implied) on God's mountains.
    How is this anything other than a contradiction in two consecutive sentences?

    This actually took place during the lifetime of Isaiah and King Hezekiah. Sennacherib returned to Nineveh, where he was eventually assassinated by two of his sons. Read 2 Kings 19:20-36.
    *sigh* Nineveh is not the mountains of Israel.

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    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    PRONOUN IMPLIED!!! It refers back to Assyria, which was a kingdom, not a person!

    And by boldtyping "him", isn't that misrepresenting me?
    Last edited by Faber; 08-09-2015 at 12:45 AM.

  7. #26
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    An ancient Israelite king. One associated with the number 666.
    You're not talking about Solomon, I hope.


    Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold. (1 Kings 10:14)

  8. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  9. #27
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    You're not talking about Solomon, I hope.
    The Bible is, so I am. Hunky dorey.

  10. #28
    Professor Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    It's also a taunt drafted by God specifically to humiliate a certain individual.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    I was waiting for someone to suggest that the king in question was Sennacherib, but he was not destroyed on the mountains of Israel. So it can't be him.
    As you point out, it's a taunt to humiliate a certain individual. Sennacherib was humiliated on the mountains of Israel after he blasphemed God. And returned to Assyria in shame. Therefore HE/HIS dreams of conquest of Juday was crushed on the mountains of Jerusalem ...which ultimately led to his demise



    What is hyperbolic about stating the location of his destruction?
    The hyperbole is that he dies on the mountains of Israel instead of retreating with egg on his face.

    Source: 2 Chronicles 32:21-22

    21 And the Lord sent an angel who destroyed every mighty warrior, commander and officer in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he returned in shame to his own land. And when he had entered the temple of his god, some of his own children killed him there with the sword. 22 So the Lord saved Hezekiah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem from the hand of Sennacherib the king of Assyria and from the hand of all others, and guided them on every side.

    © Copyright Original Source




    [qutoe]Is this something all preterists agree on or are you just making stuff up as you go along?[/quote]Preterist agree on things about as much as futurists do...some times yes, other times nsm:
    What miracles did the "pagan priesthood of Rome" perform to fool the masses?
    There are a lot of examples of "Magic" in the temples of Rome that were just parlor tricks or such...IIRC, there was a statue of a bird that would "warble" if someone asked a question that was true, but it was a water/hydraulic whistle that was activated by a lever or some such by the priests foot...I remember something about a temple that the mammoth stone doors would open "by themselves" when a cord was pulled, which were the same thing. Of course the priests would say the "gods did it"
    When was the "pagan priesthood of Rome" captured alive and thrown into the lake of fire?
    Partial Preterists still believe there are things to come...
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  11. #29
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    The Bible is, so I am. Hunky dorey. .
    And all these years I thought it was Adonikam.

    ...the sons of Adonikam, 666. (Ezra 2:13, NASB)

  12. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  13. #30
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    As you point out, it's a taunt to humiliate a certain individual. Sennacherib was humiliated on the mountains of Israel after he blasphemed God. And returned to Assyria in shame. Therefore HE/HIS dreams of conquest of Juday was crushed on the mountains of Jerusalem ...which ultimately led to his demise
    Sennacherib never defeated the Judeans and submitted them to forced labor and oppression that the song rejoices they've been freed from. Try again. And the text doesn't say "his humiliation on the mountains of Israel will lead to his eventual demise", it says "and you will fall on the mountains of Israel." Stick to the text rather than your own private interpretation, please.

    The hyperbole is that he dies on the mountains of Israel instead of retreating with egg on his face.
    You've given no evidence to justify your "hyperbolic" interpretation. Stick to the text.

    Preterist agree on things about as much as futurists do...some times yes, other times nsm:
    So this is your own private interpretation? I thought so.

    There are a lot of examples of "Magic" in the temples of Rome that were just parlor tricks or such...IIRC, there was a statue of a bird that would "warble" if someone asked a question that was true, but it was a water/hydraulic whistle that was activated by a lever or some such by the priests foot...I remember something about a temple that the mammoth stone doors would open "by themselves" when a cord was pulled, which were the same thing. Of course the priests would say the "gods did it"
    The text doesn't mention parlor tricks. It says that this individual will call fire down from heaven in the sight of the whole world. Stop letting your fancy replace sound exegesis.

    Partial Preterists still believe there are things to come...
    Huh? So the pagan Roman priests are still around in order to be cast alive into the lake of fire? Does this stuff sound plausible when you're typing it?

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