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However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

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Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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  • #46
    Scripture Verse: 2 Samuel 12

    15 After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackcloth on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them. ... 20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.

    21 His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

    22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

    24 Then David comforted his wife Bathsheba, and he went to her and made love to her. She gave birth to a son, and they named him Solomon.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Notice in verse 15 that Bathsheba is still addressed as Uriah's wife. Between there and verse 24 a detailed account of David's activities is given. Do you see a wedding anywhere there? While she eventually became David's wife, she was clearly not at the time of Solomon's conception.

    How was that a lie? It was King David's decision, based on what God told him through the prophet Nathan. Nowhere does scripture say they lied or that David was deceived. I would rather believe that the Apollo astronauts faked the moon landings before I would believe that Nathan and Bathsheba faked David's decision to appoint Solomon as heir. What? You mean they did fake the moon landings?
    Scripture Verse: 1 Kings 1

    1 When King David was very old, he could not keep warm even when they put covers over him. 2 So his attendants said to him, “Let us look for a young virgin to serve the king and take care of him. She can lie beside him so that our lord the king may keep warm.”

    3 Then they searched throughout Israel for a beautiful young woman and found Abishag, a Shunammite, and brought her to the king. 4 The woman was very beautiful; she took care of the king and waited on him, but the king had no sexual relations with her.

    © Copyright Original Source



    The point of giving us this information is to explain that David was old and senile at this point in his life...ripe for being deceived. After being duped by Bathsheba and Nathan's lie, he applied the earlier prophecy of a son "from his loins" to Solomon. But God had intended Adonijah to be king, not Solomon, which is why He created Adonijah first.

    You do realize that the alternative is that God wanted Adonijah to be murdered, right?

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Darfius View Post
      Scripture Verse: 2 Samuel 12


      24 Then David comforted his wife Bathsheba, and he went to her and made love to her. She gave birth to a son, and they named him Solomon.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Notice in verse 15 that Bathsheba is still addressed as Uriah's wife. Between there and verse 24 a detailed account of David's activities is given. Do you see a wedding anywhere there? While she eventually became David's wife, she was clearly not at the time of Solomon's conception.
      Yep - when David went to her and Solomon was conceived, she had already become his wife.



      Scripture Verse: 1 Kings 1

      1 When King David was very old, he could not keep warm even when they put covers over him. 2 So his attendants said to him, “Let us look for a young virgin to serve the king and take care of him. She can lie beside him so that our lord the king may keep warm.”

      3 Then they searched throughout Israel for a beautiful young woman and found Abishag, a Shunammite, and brought her to the king. 4 The woman was very beautiful; she took care of the king and waited on him, but the king had no sexual relations with her.

      © Copyright Original Source



      The point of giving us this information is to explain that David was old and senile at this point in his life...ripe for being deceived. After being duped by Bathsheba and Nathan's lie, he applied the earlier prophecy of a son "from his loins" to Solomon. But God had intended Adonijah to be king, not Solomon, which is why He created Adonijah first.
      It says David was feeble - it doesn't say that he had lost his faculties of reason -
      You do realize that the alternative is that God wanted Adonijah to be murdered, right?
      In the system then in force, the reign passed to God's chosen. The dynasty did not automatically pass to the eldest, nor to the eldest male child, nor even (technically) to the king's own children. Then there is the trivial detail of Adonijah's treason, as detailed in 1 Kings 1 - the passage recording that Adonijah exalted HIMSELF, had HIMSELF appointed King, while David yet lived, and without David's knowledge. Adonijah attempted to usurp the throne. These matters are not recorded as David's opinion (nor anyone else's), but as matters of fact. Moreover, the decision to have Solomon succeed David as king had long since been made, as also reiterated in 1 Kings 1.
      Last edited by tabibito; 08-10-2015, 09:39 PM.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        Yep - when David went to her and Solomon was conceived, she had already become his wife.
        Did she become his wife between him ending his fast and going to "comfort" her? Because that doesn't appear in the text.

        It says David was feeble - it doesn't say that he had lost his faculties of reason -
        There is literally no point in mentioning that David was feeble unless there was a corresponding deterioration in his mental faculties. This was not the same David who had seen through Joab's ploy to get Absalom absolved. Though not completely senile, his wits were dulled and he was open to deception by the pathetic farce Bathsheba and Nathan pulled on him. "Hey, David, remember when you said Solomon was your heir? *Nathan enters dramatically* "Why yes, David, I remember you saying that it was Solomon who would succeed you, and certainly not Adonijah!"

        In the system then in force, the reign passed to God's chosen. The dynasty did not automatically pass to the eldest, nor to the eldest male child, nor even (technically) to the king's own children. Then there is the trivial detail of Adonijah's treason, as detailed in 1 Kings 1 - the passage recording that Adonijah exalted HIMSELF, had HIMSELF appointed King, while David yet lived, and without David's knowledge. Adonijah attempted to usurp the throne. These matters are not recorded as David's opinion (nor anyone else's), but as matters of fact. Moreover, the decision to have Solomon succeed David as king had long since been made, as also reiterated in 1 Kings 1.
        How is it treason for the eldest son to make preparations for assuming the throne when his father is decrepit and not long for this world? In fact, David should long since have named his co-regent and was being derelict in his kingly duties.

        Scripture Verse: 1 Kings 1

        6 (His father had never rebuked him by asking, “Why do you behave as you do?”

        © Copyright Original Source



        Adonijah was a respectful and obedient child, according to the text. He must have felt that he had his father's blessing to act as he did, and indeed, he had the support of the majority of the nobility, Joab and the high priest, Abiathar.

        Scripture Verse: 1 Kings 1

        7 Adonijah conferred with Joab son of Zeruiah and with Abiathar the priest, and they gave him their support.

        © Copyright Original Source



        Also, there is solid evidence that the question of David's successor was open-ended, with only Bathsheba's testimony that David had "promised her" that Solomon would take the throne. And she obviously had a vested interest in lying.

        Scripture Verse: 1 Kings 1

        27 Is this something my lord the king has done without letting his servants know who should sit on the throne of my lord the king after him?”

        © Copyright Original Source



        I am confused by the visceral reaction to being told that Solomon usurped the throne. We all know the sort of man he ended up being, right?

        Scripture Verse: 1 Kings 11

        4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord; he did not follow the Lord completely, as David his father had done. 7 On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. 8 He did the same for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods.

        © Copyright Original Source

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Darfius View Post
          Did she become his wife between him ending his fast and going to "comfort" her? Because that doesn't appear in the text.
          I don't find 2 Samuel 12:9 to be irrelevant in this matter.
          Scripture Verse: 2 Samuel 12:9

          Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife ...

          © Copyright Original Source

          - and examination of the Hebrew and Koine Greek shows that at the time of speaking, the state of being a wife was already in effect.



          There is literally no point in mentioning that David was feeble unless there was a corresponding deterioration in his mental faculties.
          bare assertion.



          How is it treason for the eldest son to make preparations for assuming the throne when his father is decrepit and not long for this world?
          He didn't just make preparations according to the text, he declared himself king.

          Scripture Verse: 1 Kings 1

          6 (His father had never rebuked him by asking, “Why do you behave as you do?”

          © Copyright Original Source



          Adonijah was a respectful and obedient child, according to the text. He must have felt that he had his father's blessing to act as he did, and indeed, he had the support of the majority of the nobility, Joab and the high priest, Abiathar.
          And the text shows that this so loyal son acted without his father's knowledge.

          Scripture Verse: 1 Kings 1

          7 Adonijah conferred with Joab son of Zeruiah and with Abiathar the priest, and they gave him their support.

          © Copyright Original Source



          Also, there is solid evidence that the question of David's successor was open-ended, with only Bathsheba's testimony that David had "promised her" that Solomon would take the throne. And she obviously had a vested interest in lying.
          Nothing in Chronicles, chapters 28 and 29 lends this any credence - nor does it lend any credence to the senile theory.

          Scripture Verse: 1 Kings 1

          27 Is this something my lord the king has done without letting his servants know who should sit on the throne of my lord the king after him?”

          © Copyright Original Source



          I am confused by the visceral reaction to being told that Solomon usurped the throne.
          Which he didn't - rightly or wrongly, he was anointed king with his father's approval.
          We all know the sort of man he ended up being, right?
          yup - fallible.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Darfius View Post
            I am confused by the visceral reaction to being told that Solomon usurped the throne.
            How is this visceral? We're all stating facts and citing Scripture, not getting emotional about it. At least we're thinking logically and not putting our own ideas into it.
            When I Survey....

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              I don't find 2 Samuel 12:9 to be irrelevant in this matter.
              Scripture Verse: 2 Samuel 12:9

              Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife ...

              © Copyright Original Source

              - and examination of the Hebrew and Koine Greek shows that at the time of speaking, the state of being a wife was already in effect.
              Well he was sleeping with her as if she were his wife, but David and Bathsheba were attempting to hide their adultery (the Lord slammed David for attempting to do what he did "in secret") and she did not become his wife until after Solomon was conceived.

              bare assertion.
              Why else would David's feebleness be mentioned, other than to explain his declining wits? There is no stray or useless information in God's word.

              He didn't just make preparations according to the text, he declared himself king.
              Well someone needed to, since David had not named his successor. Why shouldn't the eldest?

              And the text shows that this so loyal son acted without his father's knowledge.
              In light of the fact that David's two most loyal servants gave their support to Adonijah, this is even more reason to believe that David was unable to properly govern at the time. Adonijah was acting responsibly until his little brother had him murdered to consolidate power.

              Which he didn't - rightly or wrongly, he was anointed king with his father's approval.
              Yes, poor David could not have foreseen the monster his son would become.

              yup - fallible.
              "Fallible" doesn't really cover child sacrifice and instituting slave labor. Nor does it cover receiving 666 talents of gold as one's tributary fee. Let he who has wisdom figure out what I'm saying.
              Last edited by Darfius; 08-11-2015, 12:39 PM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                Let he (sic.) who has wisdom figure out what I'm saying.
                I think we already have.
                When I Survey....

                Comment


                • #53
                  Awkward question #3

                  Who is the great harlot of Revelation 17?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                    Awkward question #3

                    Who is the great harlot of Revelation 17?
                    We haven't even finished question #1.
                    When I Survey....

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                      Well he was sleeping with her as if she were his wife, but David and Bathsheba were attempting to hide their adultery (the Lord slammed David for attempting to do what he did "in secret") and she did not become his wife until after Solomon was conceived.
                      ?? According to the Hebrew text and the Septuagint (Koine Greek) translation, when Nathan prophesied the death of the (first) child, David had already taken Bathsheba as his wife. [verse = 2 Samuel 11:27]And when her mourning was over, David sent and brought her to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.[/verse]



                      Why else would David's feebleness be mentioned, other than to explain his declining wits? There is no stray or useless information in God's word.
                      TWO bare assertions.



                      Well someone needed to, since David had not named his successor. Why shouldn't the eldest?
                      According to the record of Chronicles, David had long since named his successor - Solomon.



                      In light of the fact that David's two most loyal servants gave their support to Adonijah, this is even more reason to believe that David was unable to properly govern at the time.
                      Scripture Verse: 1Kings 1:8

                      But Zadok the priest, Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, Nathan the prophet, Shimei, Rei, and the mighty men who belonged to David were not with Adonijah.

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      Adonijah was acting responsibly until his little brother had him murdered to consolidate power.
                      Adonijah acknowledged that Solomon was appointed King on the Lord's say so.



                      Yes, poor David could not have foreseen the monster his son would become.



                      "Fallible" doesn't really cover child sacrifice and instituting slave labor. Nor does it cover receiving 666 talents of gold as one's tributary fee. Let he who has wisdom figure out what I'm saying.
                      I find myself in some agreement on this. However, Solomon WAS chosen by God to be king.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        ?? According to the Hebrew text and the Septuagint (Koine Greek) translation, when Nathan prophesied the death of the (first) child, David had already taken Bathsheba as his wife. [verse = 2 Samuel 11:27]And when her mourning was over, David sent and brought her to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.[/verse]
                        No, the text doesn't say David had already taken her as his wife, it says that he had taken her from Uriah. David impregnated Bathsheba around the time Uriah came back from battle. We do not know how long it took him to die in battle per David's command. It could have been months. On top of that, how long was Bathsheba's mourning? Also probably months at least. Meanwhile she is getting bigger and bigger with child. Is that when David would have married her, when their adultery would have been obvious? No, he married her after she had finished mourning for Uriah and for her lost first child.

                        TWO bare assertions.
                        Do you think there is useless information in the Bible? And I am asking you to provide another reason why God mentioned David's feebleness if not to explain his declining wits.

                        According to the record of Chronicles, David had long since named his successor - Solomon.
                        The speech David gives is after Solomon has been made co-regent, so I'm not sure what you mean by "long since." Also, unless you're prepared to claim that Joab and Abiathar were betraying David in giving their loyalties to his eldest son, the question of succession was an open one.

                        Scripture Verse: 1Kings 1:8

                        But Zadok the priest, Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, Nathan the prophet, Shimei, Rei, and the mighty men who belonged to David were not with Adonijah.

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        None of these people were important compared to Joab and Abiathar, essentially the chief military and religious officials at the time.

                        Adonijah acknowledged that Solomon was appointed King on the Lord's say so.
                        Yes, and the devil was given authority over the earth on the Lord's say so. Everything happens because God allows it. That doesn't mean He desires everything to happen which does.

                        I find myself in some agreement on this. However, Solomon WAS chosen by God to be king.
                        Solomon was allowed to become king by God, though that wicked and profane prince of Israel's day of punishment is fast approaching.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Scripture Verse:

                          2Sa 11:26

                          When the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband.

                          2Sa 11:27

                          And when her mourning was over, David sent and brought her to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.

                          2Sa 12:1

                          Then the LORD sent Nathan to David. And he came to him, and said to him: “There were two men in one city, one rich and the other poor.

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                            Awkward question #3

                            Who is the great harlot of Revelation 17?
                            It is the Rome of John's era.

                            Tacitus describes Rome as "where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

                            Next.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Faber View Post
                              How is this visceral? We're all stating facts and citing Scripture, not getting emotional about it. At least we're thinking logically and not putting our own ideas into it.
                              I think he's trying out a new word.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by DeaconZ View Post
                                It is the Rome of John's era.

                                Tacitus describes Rome as "where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

                                Next.
                                I'm waiting for him to say it was Bathsheba.
                                When I Survey....

                                Comment

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