A New Creature

[Rusty T]

This is kinda an offshoot of the "Born Again" Thread and any number of related threads lately.

A simple question to all who want to participate. When you were 'saved' - did it involve a transformation of who you essentially are? I'm just curious to see how many people have had what is sometimes called a 'conversion experience'. And if you have, can you describe the before and after a bit? And if not - do you think that 'conversion' is a necessary part of salvation?

rusty

[themuzicman]

Well, I think the sense "new" is lost in the translation. The Greek word is [greek]
kainoV[/greek], which can mean "new", but has the sense of "fresh" or "of new quality".

Thus, I don't think Paul is saying that you stopped being the old human that you were and became a new human, but that you are (if I might use a little liberty) are a refreshed creature, and that which you were has passed away.

In waht sense, you ask? Keep reading:

2 Cor 5

18 Now all [these] things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

The old self had our tresspasses counted against us. We were on death row, dead men walking. But now we have been reconciled to God, renewed and refreshed from the condemnation of sin, to what man was intended to be from creation.

Michael

[Bill the Cat]

I can say that the day I got saved, I lost my NEED for liquor. Prior to my conversion, it controlled me and I couldn't go a day without at least a 6 pack. I was poor all of the time. But I got saved and He set me FREE!!!

[Rusty T]

Okay, Muz. I'm simply asking if you or others believe that salvation is accompanied by a transformation experience. So, I suppose - in what real sense are you 'renewed' and 'refreshed' - how did that affect you really, not in the eternal sense but in your everday life. In other words, when you were 'saved', 'born of the spirit', or whatever terminology you want to use - did you change.

rusty

[Rusty T]

I can say that the day I got saved, I lost my NEED for liquor. Prior to my conversion, it controlled me and I couldn't go a day without at least a 6 pack. I was poor all of the time. But I got saved and He set me FREE!!!

That's the kind of thing I was looking for from those who do believe you are changed.

rusty

[Dark Knight]

This is kinda an offshoot of the "Born Again" Thread and any number of related threads lately.

A simple question to all who want to participate. When you were 'saved' - did it involve a transformation of who you essentially are? I'm just curious to see how many people have had what is sometimes called a 'conversion experience'. And if you have, can you describe the before and after a bit? And if not - do you think that 'conversion' is a necessary part of salvation?

rusty

Greetings rusty!

Salvation is new life in Christ. A new identity.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life"…John 5:24

A believer has passed out of death into life.



"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God"
Colossians 3:3

A believer has died with Christ.



"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me".
Galatians 2:20

A believer has been crucified with Christ and they no longer live.



"Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" …1 Corinthians 3:16

"...your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own" …1 Corinthians 6:19

"And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." …1 John 3:24

"By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit." …1 John 4:13


The Holy Spirit dwells in believers.



"Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

A believer has a new identity.

They have died with Christ.

They have new life in Christ.

They have the Spirit of God.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."

A believer is no longer in Adam (old man). They are now in Christ (new man).


"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection."

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus"



"For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions"


We have already been raised to new life.

[themuzicman]

Okay, Muz. I'm simply asking if you or others believe that salvation is accompanied by a transformation experience. So, I suppose - in what real sense are you 'renewed' and 'refreshed' - how did that affect you really, not in the eternal sense but in your everday life. In other words, when you were 'saved', 'born of the spirit', or whatever terminology you want to use - did you change.

rusty

Well, I was saved when I was 5, and I grew up in a family that espoused and taught their kids both to live lives as a Christian should and to worship and live in awe of God, so it would be hard for me to quantify.

Has the Holy Spirit brought me out of the sin that I've endulged? Absolutely. The ongoing effect of the Holy Spirit on my life has been a renewing process, just as Paul speaks of in Romans 12:2.

I think Paul's more specific point, here, is that we are no longer enemies of God, no longer under His judgment, but reconciled just as Adam was before the fall, and, as such, renewed.

Michael

[Howie]

This is kinda an offshoot of the "Born Again" Thread and any number of related threads lately.

A simple question to all who want to participate. When you were 'saved' - did it involve a transformation of who you essentially are? I'm just curious to see how many people have had what is sometimes called a 'conversion experience'. And if you have, can you describe the before and after a bit? And if not - do you think that 'conversion' is a necessary part of salvation?

rusty

Dear Rusty,

What a wonderful query. I remember the day I was "saved" as if it were yesterday. I return to that experience often. The sensation was as if I were sucked out of an airplane window, terrified as I was thrust into the open sky and instead of falling to my certain death, I found myself buoyed up by the clouds and floating in the arms of God.

As others have said, my experience was not one of a "new me", but rather one of a clear mind. What had appeared confusing and obscure has become simple and discernable. What had felt like pain and suffering has become growth and opportunity. Jesus encourages us to "change our thinking" and believe the "good news". The day I changed my thinking and began to see rightly was the day that the path of salvation became clear.

All the best.

[Dark Knight]

Salvation is not mental assent. Those who believe it is will hear Jesus words of having never known them.

[JackC]

Salvation is not mental assent. Those who believe it is will hear Jesus words of having never known them.

What is so difficult, Darth, is that humanity for the most part has no idea how very far away from God - in separation - that they are.

And so one little taste of more freedom - whether it comes from healing in our emotional bodies, a veil lifted in our mental bodies, and/or there being an actual spiritual experience or just an influx of more peace, contentment, certainty - and humanity thinks they have arrived, that they are saved or born again.

In reality the journey has just begun. One bit of healing in the require magnitude or one tiny veil lifted among thousands is just the first tiny step.

A suggestion is that if we want to be known by Christ and to know Him, why not look to others who have been so blessed.

That will put our own little experience or knowing in perspective.




Jack

[Alien]

Here's one to add to your collection.

A simple question to all who want to participate. When you were 'saved' - did it involve a transformation of who you essentially are? I'm just curious to see how many people have had what is sometimes called a 'conversion experience'. And if you have, can you describe the before and after a bit?

Not "a transformation of what I really was", no. Initially it was like stepping into a hot tub after a long day of hard physical work. A feeling of intense euphoria. That tended to wear off, and was replaced by a more generalised feeling of peace. Then I started to notice a gradual transformation; silly little things, like I didn't get so angry at other drivers! Before, I was very self centered. After, well, less so, but as a gradual change, not a whizz bang transformation.

So, it was not some kind of "new me", but a slow change in the direction of something I had always wanted to be. Perhaps like when you get the car tuned up and it starts performing the way it did when it was new. It's the same car, but now it's working better.

Sorry for all the analogies, but this is hard to describe. No one should think I'm some kind of saint either; I'm just on the way.

And if not - do you think that 'conversion' is a necessary part of salvation?

I have no idea. I would expect that God would work with the saved person, if not what's the point? But I don't insist that He treats everyone the same. Maybe salvation is tailored to best fit each person?

[Alien]

What is so difficult, Darth, is that humanity for the most part has no idea how very far away from God - in separation - that they are.

And so one little taste of more freedom - whether it comes from healing in our emotional bodies, a veil lifted in our mental bodies, and/or there being an actual spiritual experience or just an influx of more peace, contentment, certainty - and humanity thinks they have arrived, that they are saved or born again.

In reality the journey has just begun. One bit of healing in the require magnitude or one tiny veil lifted among thousands is just the first tiny step.

Well put.

On the other hand, there has to be a starting point, a decision to trust God and start moving in the right direction. It's perhaps like getting on the train that is going to the correct destination, as opposed to one that is headed somewhere else. We're not there yet, probably not even close, but at least we're on the train. And that is a very important first step.

So in a sense the initial decision is very important, and should be celebrated. Then the hard work begins.

[Alien]

Salvation is not mental assent. Those who believe it is will hear Jesus words of having never known them.

What is it?

[Dark Knight]

What is it?

See post # 6

[Rusty T]

Thanks to everyone who's answered so far.