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orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by 37181
    Then Jesus' words, ". . . it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."
    Entering into life maimed probably refers to getting saved before death while being maimed, not being resurrected maimed.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
      Entering into life maimed probably refers to getting saved before death while being maimed, not being resurrected maimed.
      It's hyperbole to express how essential salvation is above anything else.

      Comment


      • #33
        Probably. But the point is, I don't think the phrase "enter into life" should even refer to a future event when Jesus repeatedly speaks of eternal life as a present status.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          Probably. But the point is, I don't think the phrase "enter into life" should even refer to a future event when Jesus repeatedly speaks of eternal life as a present status.
          Entering Life, Entering the Kingdom: A Future Expectation in the Synoptics

          It seems we're straying from the opening post. I will comment, however, that "entering life" is functionally equivalent to entering the kingdom of heaven/God in the Synoptics. This is confirmed in Matthew 19:16ff. and Mark 9:43ff. where "eternal"/age-lasting life, entering life and entering the kingdom are all used interchangeably. Entering the kingdom and gaining life in the age to come are not only treated as equivalent, but as future in the Synoptics. E.g., in Matthew 25:34 when Christ returns to judge the nations, it is then that the righteous are welcomed into the kingdom. This will occur at the end of the age when the righteous and unrighteous are separated in order to meet their respective fates on the day of judgement (cf. Matthew 13:36-43). At the end of the passage Jesus says the righteous will inherit "eternal"/age-lasting life at this time (25:46). Again, we see kingdom entrance and life in the age to come are treated synonymously (cp. 25:34 and 46b). "Entering life" is a future event linked to the reappearance of Christ and the reception of the righteous into the kingdom on judgement day in the Synoptic Gospels. As entering life and entering the kingdom essentially refer to the same thing, no one may properly be said to "enter life" prior to the Parousia (Jesus' return).

          It will not help reading the inaugurated eschatology of John's Gospel into the Synoptics. The term "eternal life" (zoe aionios) occurs sixteen to seventeen times in John1 and a total of eight times in the Synoptics (Matthew, Mark, Luke). In the Johannine literature2 "eternal life" often is used to emphasize the present aspect of salvation. Believers are united to Christ, reconciled to God through faith in the Son in an ongoing relationship that will culminate in final, eschatological salvation when Jesus returns. On that day ("the last day") the righteous will be raised (John 6:40). That "eternal life" is treated in John as emphasizing believers' present salvation in relationship to God and his Son is made explicit in the following passages:
          "[T]his is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3 ESV)

          [T]his is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:11,12 ESV)

          If you attempt to transfer this Johannine concept of "eternal life" over to other portions of the New Testament you will have a mangled understanding of the texts which speak of "eternal life", entering life and entering the kingdom elsewhere (as in the Synoptics). In any event, we have already covered this ground before so I will leave you to it.


          Notes

          1 I lost count.

          2 Specifically the Gospel of John and the Epistles (1-3 John).
          Last edited by The Remonstrant; 02-16-2014, 03:34 PM.
          For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

          Comment


          • #35
            You make it sound like you don't have much respect for the accuracy of the texts, if you are suggesting that John did not accurately report what Jesus said.

            Anyway, I interpret Matthew 25 as referring to the present evangelization of the gentiles who receive Jesus's messengers.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              You make it sound like you don't have much respect for the accuracy of the texts, if you are suggesting that John did not accurately report what Jesus said.
              No, that is not what I am "suggesting" at all. The basic idea is this: Some terms may be employed in one way by certain authors, and another way by other authors (yes, even within the New Testament). It's very simple. Please refer to message #34 above for a brief demonstration.
              For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

              Comment


              • #37
                If John emphasized the present nature of eternal life, then Jesus emphasized it. You can't just say, "Well he only teaches it in John; Matthew says something different."

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                  If John emphasized the present nature of eternal life, then Jesus emphasized it. You can't just say, "Well he only teaches it in John; Matthew says something different."
                  Sometimes different authors have different emphases. I am not questioning what Jesus himself taught or the accuracy of the New Testament writings. None of the four Gospel accounts exhaustively recount all of Jesus' words or actions.
                  For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                    Sometimes different authors have different emphases. I am not questioning what Jesus himself taught or the accuracy of the New Testament writings. None of the four Gospel accounts exhaustively recount all of Jesus' words or actions.
                    Well, yeah....

                    John 20 [30]*And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

                    John 21 [25]*And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                      I think that for many the concept is unclear. One key question is how Christians conceive heaven. Do they think of it a place far removed and completely other than the earth? Or do they see the vision of the New Jerusalem coming down out of the new heaven to the new earth?
                      Interesting questions. Even more, I wonder if there is a difference between for example, a millenialists and premillennialists.
                      Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                        Interesting questions. Even more, I wonder if there is a difference between for example, a millenialists and premillennialists.
                        A difference in what?
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          A difference in what?
                          A difference in how easy it is to recognize the resurrection as an eventual fact. Because even preterists accept the general resurrection as far as I know, but would it perhaps be easier for a lay member of a dispensational church?
                          Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                            A difference in how easy it is to recognize the resurrection as an eventual fact.
                            What does the timing of the general resurrection vis-a-vis the millennium have to do with that?
                            Because even preterists accept the general resurrection as far as I know, but would it perhaps be easier for a lay member of a dispensational church?
                            Hyperpreterists do not accept a literal resurrection, but I don't think that has anything to do with their view of the millennium.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              If I meant hyperpreterists I would have said hyperpreterists. There are several forum members who prefer "Preterist" over "orthodox Preterist."

                              I don't know, maybe some groups emphasize that more than others. I'm asking questions. I do not have much to contribute.
                              Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                                If I meant hyperpreterists I would have said hyperpreterists. There are several forum members who prefer "Preterist" over "orthodox Preterist."

                                I don't know, maybe some groups emphasize that more than others. I'm asking questions. I do not have much to contribute.
                                Every preterist of which I'm aware is quite firmly committed to a factual general resurrection. Does that help? And preterists are either amill (like me) or post-mill (Dee Dee, IIRC)
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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