Did Jesus know he was going to be resurrected?

[LGM]

Did he choose his fate?

Did he have perfect foreknowledge of what he was doing, and what was going to happen?

[FlimFlamboyant]

Did he choose his fate?

Did he have perfect foreknowledge of what he was doing, and what was going to happen?

Well, he said this to his disciples ahead of time:

(Luk 18:31-33) Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

[Mountain Man]

And there's this:

John 2:18-22

18 Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"

19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

20 The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

[LGM]

So Jesus chose and wanted to be crucified, and he knew he was just going to pretend to be dead for a couple of days, and he knew that he would then get up, walk out of his tomb, and tell everybody "Ha! Look at me! You can't kill me! I'm an immortal god!" And then he ate a piece of fish, made some chit chat with his followers, and flew up into the clouds, never to be seen again.

It's a neat trick, but I don't get what the big sacrifice was? And why would he be so mad at Judas? He was just part of the plan to get the thing he wanted.

Other real people who risk their lives for a cause don't know the future, and they often die painful deaths, and they stay dead...forever. People like the soldiers in Iraq, or the firefighters at the WTC on 9/11.

They seem to me, to be the ones making a real sacrifice.

But maybe Jesus was just an ordinary man, just like these other heroes, who didn't know the future, but was just fighting for the cause he beieved in. And he made the ultimate sacrifice just like they did, and he never really rose from the dead, or flew off into the clouds, and some people just made those stories up years later because they couldn't accept the truth.

I think thats how I prefer to remember him.

[Ryokan]

Did he choose his fate?

Did he have perfect foreknowledge of what he was doing, and what was going to happen?

At risk of being called a heretic, Jesus behavior in the Gospels indicates while he may have thought his death may be necessary, he didn't know the how or fully understand the why. And shortly before and during his execution he seems unsure, questioning even, at the end, if he wasn't crazy about the whole thing. Becaue he stood up against men who were bilking the public of their money for supposed righteousness. Jesus put his balls o the line for what he believed in. And unlike later messiahs, what he believed in was service for the poor, love of neighbors, peace, and serving God. That deserves respect even if you don't take his religious sect seriously.

[Zeluvia]

This is one of the many things that have always bothered me about the whole sacrafice thing.

Couldn't make any sense of it when I was a kid, and still can't.

The idea of sacrafice is to give up something that is meaningful and important and valuable to you in order to convince a God you are sincere in your wish and as a form of barter for help. This is how we as humans developed the idea of sacrafice.

You want a good year of crops? Give God a valuable animal, a perfect one, and burn it for him, the assumption being he would like that, he would recognize your "payment" and in return give you what you asked for.

It is a very minor logical step to giving your most valuable possesions, your children, to barter with God for more major intercessions. The more pain the sacrafice causes, the more God must listen to me and pay me for it.

So then we come to God sacraficing his own son, and yet unlike our sacrafices, there is no net loss. Jesus experiences pain as a human, loses his humanity, and ascends to heaven to sit on the right hand of God.

The whole thing falls apart right there.

[Mountain Man]

It's a neat trick, but I don't get what the big sacrifice was?

Would you look forward to being subjected to brutal torture and an excruciatingly painful death even if you knew you would miraculously rise from the dead in a few days?

And why would he be so mad at Judas?

Which passage of scripture leads you to believe that Jesus was mad at Judas?

Other real people who risk their lives for a cause don't know the future, and they often die painful deaths, and they stay dead...forever. People like the soldiers in Iraq, or the firefighters at the WTC on 9/11.

They seem to me, to be the ones making a real sacrifice.

O.K. But I still don't see why Jesus' resurrection makes his sacrifice any less real.

But maybe Jesus was just an ordinary man, just like these other heroes, who didn't know the future, but was just fighting for the cause he beieved in. And he made the ultimate sacrifice just like they did, and he never really rose from the dead, or flew off into the clouds, and some people just made those stories up years later because they couldn't accept the truth.

Or maybe the Gospels are true.

[LGM]

Would you look forward to being subjected to brutal torture and an excruciatingly painful death even if you knew you would miraculously rise from the dead in a few days?

Well it would certainly bother me more if I knew I wasn't coming back to life.

Besides, if I'm a magical, supernatural, trick performing god, if the pain got too much for me, I could just make it all go away. Heck, I coulda just touched myself and healed myself if I wanted to.

But maybe that was all a lie...and Jesus really did die an excruciatingly painful death, and never rose again, just like so many other ordinary people who were fighting for a cause they believed in.

Which passage of scripture leads you to believe that Jesus was mad at Judas?

My bad...I'm sure Jesus was simply thrilled with Judas, and he knew, and just didn't mind, that Judas would commit suicide over what he had done(depending on the version of the story you prefer), and be vilified as the most hated traitor in all of history.

O.K. But I still don't see why Jesus' resurrection makes his sacrifice any less real.

What exactly did he sacrifice?

It seems he sacrificed sticking around on planet earth if he came back to life and flew up into the clouds.

I wonder...where was he "flying" to? Was there a spaceship waiting? Or could he fly through the vacuum of space?

Or maybe the Gospels are true.

And maybe the Book of Mormon is as well...

[Mountain Man]

The idea of sacrafice is to give up something that is meaningful and important and valuable to you in order to convince a God you are sincere in your wish and as a form of barter for help.

Well, not exactly, at least not according to Jewish custom. The idea behind the sacrifice, rather, was that the blood of another was spilled as a substitution for your own, and the requirement of anything from a bull to a dove (depending on what the worshipper could afford; see Leviticus 5) wasn't particularly burdensome.

In the context of the Jewish sacrifice custom, Christ's death on the cross fulfilled its intended purpose.

[LGM]

In the context of the Jewish sacrifice custom, Christ's death on the cross fulfilled its intended purpose.

But he didn't die...remember? According to his hagiographers, he's enjoying himself in "heaven" right this moment. The "heaven" which they thought was just above the clouds, which is why he "flew up there" in the story.

None of those bulls, or goats or doves ever came back to life and flew up into heaven. Did they?

[maudman]

Did he choose his fate?

Did he have perfect foreknowledge of what he was doing, and what was going to happen?

OH! my aren't we clever. You ought to be ashamed of yourself LGM.

I see a spankin coming.

[mossrose]

Besides, if I'm a magical, supernatural, trick performing god, if the pain got too much for me, I could just make it all go away. Heck, I coulda just touched myself and healed myself if I wanted to.

Interesting. That's exactly what the people said as they passed him by on the cross. Right after Jesus said, "Forgive them, Father, because they don't know what they are doing."

From Mark 15:

29Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, "Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days,

30save Yourself, and come down from the cross!"

31In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes, were mocking Him among themselves and saying, "He saved others; He cannot save Himself.

32"Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe!" Those who were crucified with Him were also insulting Him.

[Mountain Man]

But he didn't die...remember? According to his hagiographers, he's enjoying himself in "heaven" right this moment.

So? You still haven't shown how that makes his sacrifice any less real. I recently received a PM alerting me of a Glenn Miller article on this subject that makes some very good points:

If Jesus didn't stay dead, how could His death have been a REAL sacrifice?

Think about it for a second—what possible significant diminishing of pain, agony, desolation, etc would some theoretical foreknowledge provide—WHILE IN THE AGONIES OF DYING?! It might help some (e.g., knowing that my foot pain will eventually go away helps me ‘put up with’ the discomfort, but the pain is still very, very ‘vocal’ every day!), but the biblical data above indicates that it wasn’t enough to help Jesus! Jesus knew and tried to teach his followers that He WOULD be raised from the dead, but that didn’t stop Him from crying, tears, anguish, agony, death-level grief, and the Cry of Dereliction. Dying is dying—it is unnatural, it is offensive to God, it is a moral stench, it is violation, it is existential rape—no matter WHO it happens to. And the more innocent and sensitive the Sufferer, the more likely its full terror and mocking violation will be felt…He had to drink this Cup…This suffering had an ultimate character to it, given the Ultimacy of the Sufferer, and the Ultimacy of the event itself.

© source where applicable

Miller then goes on to argue that even after miraculously rising from the dead, Christ would retain the memory of the acute suffering of his death for eternity. He cites the following passages as support:

Hebrews 2:14-18

14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Hebrews 4:15

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

Miller concludes:

If Jesus didn't stay dead, how could His death have been a REAL sacrifice?

These passages suggest that Christ is currently able to sympathize with our sufferings, that He can somehow still ‘know what it is like to hurt’, that He can ‘weep with those who weep’…This requires Him to have a current knowledge/memory of the emotional pains of suffering, betrayal, desolation, abandonment, persecution, slander etc. This ministry of His, of “I know exactly what you are experiencing right now, friend” requires the emotional memories and feelings to be ‘available’ (if not omni-present, given the numbers of people bringing these trials to him each day!) in order to succor His needy.

. . .

So, when we factor in the hyper-reality of His suffering on the Cross, and the ever-present residual emotional memory of that experience, we get a very sobering view of the cost of the Cross to the Lord.

© source where applicable

From: If Jesus didn't stay dead, how could His death have been a REAL sacrifice? by Glenn Miller

[LGM]

Interesting. That's exactly what the people said as they passed him by on the cross. Right after Jesus said, "Forgive them, Father, because they don't know what they are doing."

Well, thats how the story goes anyway.

But I don't believe it.

I prefer to think of Jesus as simply a passionate social reformer who never performed any miracles, was simply standing up for what he believed in, against the powerful entrenched religious and political leaders of his day.
And for that, he was killed, just like countless others throughout human history.

I'm sure Jesus enemies may have taunted him at his execution, just like Chirstians taunted Servetus and Bruno while they were burned alive for standing up for what they believed in, against the powerful entrenched Christian leaders of their day.

I see no distinction. The only difference is, no one has created a story and religion around Bruno or Servetus coming back to life after 3 days, and flying up into the clouds.

[LGM]

So? You still haven't shown how that makes his sacrifice any less real.

And you still haven't explained what his sacrifice was. Seems according to the story, he had some pain for a few hgours, and then took a two day nap, and then went some place far more pleasant than planet earth, never to return.

Doesn't sound like much of a sacrifice to me.

I recently received a PM alerting me of a Glenn Miller article on this subject that makes some very good points:

I forgot that once you run out of your standard quips, you need to cut and paste Glenn Miller articles.

If Glenn shows up in this thread, I'd be happy to debate him, not his cut and paste proxy.