Noah's Ark Found in Iran?!

[Ryokan]

Here is what Jesus said about Noah...

"And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it shall be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all."

One does not have to have evidence of a lost ark to believe the account of Noah. We have the testimony of Jesus. The question lies in what do you believe about Jesus? Jesus said there was an ark, and all others were destroyed. In my mind, that solidifies it.

Again, at risk of sounding heretical, Jesus was not omniscient on Earth. He had no special knowledge of Noah, or history, or other such things a intelligent Jewish teacher would have known except when they were illuminated to him by the Father.. However he was sinless, he was wise, and he was at least a very gifted and studious student of Hebrew scripture. He could use Noah's story, and even believe it was truth not myth, without Christians now with better access to archaelogical and geological data taking the story literally. What we have to take seriously is the message of the Noah story, Jesus's message, and the message Jesus illustrated using the Noah story.

[Ryokan]

Exactly. It was said earlier in the thread that there are other "Christian" interpretations of the flood account. Perhaps, but I would say any other "Christian" interpretations have to be consistent with what Jesus said otherwise it is not a "Christian" interpretation. A Christian merely believing something about the Bible doesn't Christianize the belief. If that were the case, finding some Christian who thinks the flood was really about a bad day in the nursery would also be a Christian interpretation.

Therefore, it is completely untenable and unbelievable to me that any Christian would dismiss out of hand the possibility of finding the ark because it did exist, and it might be found. I really don't care if this is it or not. I don't particularly care for artificacts because foolish people then tend to worship the artifact rather than God, but it is bothersome the mockery of the possibility coming from professing Christians. This guy could be a loon and a fraud, I have no idea. But the ark could be found someday by someone.

Given little evidence of a global flood outside the Bible, Christians like me are either forced to chuck out reason, which I can't force myself to do, it would be just lying to myself, or come to a different understanding of the Noah story. If that means I am not a Christian to Tweb, so be it, I'll pick the spiffy Jedi tag here and believe what I can believe.
As far as the rest of my incredulity, well, the guy seems like a crook. OJ may find the killer, as I said earlier, but I am not counting on it.

[WaterOfOblivion]

And exactly what test did they perform? I know how to determine fossilized wood from other rocks, so I would love to hear what they did.

I dunno. They've convinced the news media they performed legitimate tests. Like I said, two possibilities. They misled the media (hoaxers), or it's fossilized wood.

Why is this so hard? I think this is the third time I've used the phrase "Piltdown Boat". You guys are arguing with me like I've staked my faith on this. I promise you though that the doubters will not change their minds even if they find a copy of the first several chapters of Genesis etched into the hull.

At this point in time I lean 60/40 that it's NOT a hoax, that there is a massive primarily wooden object on that mountain in Iran. Hey, I wouldn't give up hope, it might have "Gilgamesh Boatworks" on the ships bell......

[lao tzu]

And exactly what test did they perform? I know how to determine fossilized wood from other rocks, so I would love to hear what they did.

Hi, Glenn,

Thanks for stopping by. The only link that names a test facility is (11) above.

Testing of rock and shell samples were conducted by BETA Analytic Inc., the largest professional radiocarbon dating laboratory in the world, which routinely services world governments and major academic and historical institutions such as the Smithsonian Institute. Results of this carbon dating, which is still on-going, indicate the presence of abundant organic material consistent with coming from a quiescent deep-water environment – in layman’s terms, possibly from a world once immersed in water.

Are you familiar with these people?

As ever, Jesse

[lao tzu]

I dunno. They've convinced the news media they performed legitimate tests. Like I said, two possibilities. They misled the media (hoaxers), or it's fossilized wood.

I went through your sources in detail above, and none of them reported anything other than the unsupported claims of the expedition members themselves.

Why is this so hard? I think this is the third time I've used the phrase "Piltdown Boat". You guys are arguing with me like I've staked my faith on this. I promise you though that the doubters will not change their minds even if they find a copy of the first several chapters of Genesis etched into the hull.

Does it occur to you that those chapters had not yet been written at the time of the flood? If anything, such an etching would prove a hoax beyond any shadow of a doubt.

At this point in time I lean 60/40 that it's NOT a hoax, that there is a massive primarily wooden object on that mountain in Iran. Hey, I wouldn't give up hope, it might have "Gilgamesh Boatworks" on the ships bell......

Again, there has been zero, zilch, nil, nada evidence of any petrified wood presented. But still you claim 60/40 confidence that it's not a hoax. As I mentioned above, this kind of gullibility does not stand as a testament to anything other than the willingness to provoke ridicule at what you claim to be your faith.

Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that you're just another atheist sock puppet trying to make the fundys look like idiots.

As ever, Jesse

[grmorton]

I dunno. They've convinced the news media they performed legitimate tests. Like I said, two possibilities. They misled the media (hoaxers), or it's fossilized wood.

Why is this so hard? I think this is the third time I've used the phrase "Piltdown Boat". You guys are arguing with me like I've staked my faith on this. I promise you though that the doubters will not change their minds even if they find a copy of the first several chapters of Genesis etched into the hull.

At this point in time I lean 60/40 that it's NOT a hoax, that there is a massive primarily wooden object on that mountain in Iran. Hey, I wouldn't give up hope, it might have "Gilgamesh Boatworks" on the ships bell......

I once had to take media training, to know how to deal with the media. One thing I learned is that the media is not interested in truth--none of them. They are interested in controversy because that sells papers and gains listeners. The Media is about the worst place to go if you want to know truth.

[grmorton]

Hi, Glenn,

Thanks for stopping by. The only link that names a test facility is (11) above.

Testing of rock and shell samples were conducted by BETA Analytic Inc., the largest professional radiocarbon dating laboratory in the world, which routinely services world governments and major academic and historical institutions such as the Smithsonian Institute. Results of this carbon dating, which is still on-going, indicate the presence of abundant organic material consistent with coming from a quiescent deep-water environment – in layman’s terms, possibly from a world once immersed in water.

Are you familiar with these people?

As ever, Jesse

Since I don't do geology in rocks which have any possibility of being radiocarbon dated, I am not familiar with them. However, there are several inconsistencies if those fawning followers of this story would stop and think about. The site you list says this:

"Testing of rock and shell samples were conducted by BETA Analytic Inc., the largest professional radiocarbon dating laboratory in the world, which routinely services world governments and major academic and historical institutions such as the Smithsonian Institute. Results of this carbon dating, which is still on-going, indicate the presence of abundant organic material consistent with coming from a quiescent deep-water environment – in layman’s terms, possibly from a world once immersed in water. "http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idCategory=33&idsub=128&id=2424

Now the story is dated Monday, January 16, 2006. And it says:

"This past summer Cornuke, a former crime scene investigator turned relic hunter, culminated more than 20-years of painstaking research and reconnaissance by climbing Iran’s Mt. Soleiman in search of Noah’s Ark.?"http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idCategory=33&idsub=128&id=2424

Ok, so that story is six months after the supposed expedition. If that is so, then the radiocarbon dating should be finished by something like October at the very very latest. Why? BetaAnalytics web site says this:

"The professional staff has a combined knowledge of more than 140 years in radiocarbon dating. All technicians are full time personnel who give your samples undivided attention, without the distraction of personal research, teaching, or administrative duties. Each staff member is committed to providing you with the highest degree of analytical quality for each and every sample. Someone is always available to discuss your sample requirements, give you advice on how to proceed, and to discuss results. BETA does not analyze samples with students or part-time researchers who would necessarily be distracted with other obligations and priorities.

We Promise Results Within 2-30 Working Days" http://www.radiocarbon.com/

Since January is longer than 30 days, the radiocarbon dating work shouldn't still be going on unless these guys are trying to hide something so that the faithful will send them the cash.

Of course the fawning followers of this story can't do a lick of self generated research to find out that they are being taken. Makes the signature at the bottom of my note all the more correct. How adverse to fact checking must one be in order to be a YEC?

[lao tzu]

Thank you for your contribution, Glenn.

Now the story is dated Monday, January 16, 2006.

Oh my. I missed that myself. As all the other stories and links I checked were datelined late last month, it didn't occur to me this was a report of an expedition from last year. The pieces now fall into place. All of the current hype is surrounding the "Ark Fever" book release. And the claims of testing are all spurious or the results would by now be included in the publicity coverage.

Well, that pretty much settles it. Sorry to send you off on a wild goose chase.

As ever, Jesse

[grmorton]

Thank you for your contribution, Glenn.

Oh my. I missed that myself. As all the other stories and links I checked were datelined late last month, it didn't occur to me this was a report of an expedition from last year. The pieces now fall into place. All of the current hype is surrounding the "Ark Fever" book release. And the claims of testing are all spurious or the results would by now be included in the publicity coverage.

Well, that pretty much settles it. Sorry to send you off on a wild goose chase.

As ever, Jesse

Jesse, I would have looked into this eventually anyway. The thing I find so absysmally sad is how stupid and gullible we Christians are

[WaterOfOblivion]

But still you claim 60/40 confidence that it's not a hoax. As I mentioned above, this kind of gullibility does not stand as a testament to anything other than the willingness to provoke ridicule at what you claim to be your faith.

So let's examine what my 60/40 confidence is. It is that a large amount of wood has been found high on a mountain in the form of a structure. It's really dishonest to imply, even in the smallest way that I am sure it's the ark or even a boat.

As a long time "Ark Watcher" this interests me because it is the first organized presentation of supposedly discovered archeological evidence of something that COULD be the Ark of Noah at a place other than Mt Ararat. Therefore I am excited. That's all. If it turns out to be just wood, or an utter hoax, I got distracted for no good reason and we can probably cross that particular mountain off the list. We don't know the mountain on which the Ark came to rest, the Bible never says exactly which mountain or what Noah considered to be the "Mountains of Ararat". This attracted my interest because it's the first real claim at a location other than the "traditional" site.

Let me also be clear about something. I expect there is an Ark Site. The object was far too large and even taking it apart and moving it somewhere else would leave considerable evidence. I don't know if we will find it, that's up to God essentially. I also expect as I have said before that if it is found that no matter how solid the evidence turns out to be, those not inclined to believe in the Biblical story will still not believe. I expect as I have alluded to before that even if it's believed to be "an Ark" for "A Flood" that quickly people will move to prove it was some other mythical flood survivors boat. In other words I expect that the mindset of the non Christian is such that if it is proved to their satisfaction to be a boat for floating over a disasterous flood, that they would much rather suspect it is Gilgamesh's than Noah's.

Please cease to characterize me as believing this is Noah's ark. I have the same doubts you have. I know there was a Noah, I know he had a boat, I don't know if we will ever find it. I'd like to though.

[WaterOfOblivion]

Does it occur to you that those chapters had not yet been written at the time of the flood? If anything, such an etching would prove a hoax beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Jesse, Moses had to get the info somewhere. I'm engaging in Hyperbole. Maybe we'll find a "Time Capsule" in the "Basalt Formation" in Iran. Maybe they had DVD technology back then and it all got wiped out in the flood except for Noah's little stash. Maybe there will be Ante Deluvian porn on board. I'm sure that if there is every non Christian Critic will quickly concede it is Noah's Ark, just so they can smear his reputation. We already know he was a drunk.

[NeilUnreal]

The formation could not be both the Ark and be made of petrified wood because in order for Noah to exit the Ark, the Ark would have had to have been above ground and above water. It seems vanishingly unlikely that enough minerals could be dissolved in the air to allow sub-aerial petrifaction of wood in a few thousand years. If that were the case, lots of sub-aerially petrified wood would be found laying around and even wood structures a few hundred years old would show some signs of petrifaction.

Additionally, if the wood were petrified, it could not be carbon-dated, since that requires the original material. If enough material were left to carbon date the "petrified wood," the resulting mixed material should be unambiguously identifiable as some hybrid of wood and stone with relatively simple chemical analysis and light microscopy.

In other words, they could publish a few test results and photomicrographs in a peer-reviewed journal, distribute a few samples to major universities*, everyone with sophmore or better level knowledge would be instantly convinced, and they would win nearly every award imagineable in archeaology, history, and geology. Where is the publication?

-Neil

*They can't claim a dearth of material, there was enough rock there to build a small castle.

[Minnesota]

The formation could not be both the Ark and be made of petrified wood because . . . .

Good points.

[WaterOfOblivion]

At this point I have a guarded hopeful optimism because it would be tons of fun for the Ark to be up there. As far as Neil's points about petrification etc etc etc, "Science" just might have to revise it's views if a big petrified boat is discovered at a high altitude. Of course "Science" hasn't had to change it's views at all recently. Scientists have discovered all the laws, all the principles and all the truth there is to discover and are presently writing the Definitive Work on all that is Scientific.

[Sparko]

It could have gotten buried over thousands of winters of snow and thaw and geological shift, petrified, and recently exposed to air again.