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Bodily Resurrection

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  • Bodily Resurrection

    Over the weekend I was wading through Jerome's letters and came across a piece in Letter LXXXIV that drew my attention (paragraphs 5 & 6)...

    "We believe, say they, in the resurrection of the body. This confession, if only it be sincere, is free from objection. But as there are bodies celestial and bodies terrestrial2573 and as thin air and the aether are both according to their natures Called bodies, they use the word body instead of the word flesh in order that an orthodox person hearing them say body may take them to mean flesh while a heretic will understand that they mean spirit. This is their first piece of craft, and if this is found out, they devise fresh wiles, and, pretending innocence themselves, accuse us of malice. As though they were frank believers they say, "We believe in the resurrection of the flesh." Now when they have said this, the ignorant crowd thinks it ought to be satisfied, particularly because these exact words are found in the creed.2574 If you go on to question them farther, a buzz of disapproval is heard in the ring and their backers cry out: "You have heard them say that they believe in the resurrection of the flesh; what more do you want?" the popular favour is transferred from our side to theirs, and while they are called honest, we are looked on as false accusers. But if you set your face steadily and keeping a firm hold of their admission about the flesh, proceed to press them as to whether they assert the resurrection of that flesh which is visible and tangible, which walks and speaks, they first laugh and then signify their assent. And when we inquire whether the resurrection will exhibit anew the hair and the teeth, the chest and the stomach, the hands and the feet, and all the other members of the body, then no longer able to contain their mirth they burst out laughing and tell us that in that case we shall need barbers, and cakes, and doctors, and cobblers. Do we, they ask us in turn, believe that after the resurrection men's cheeks will still be rough and those of women smooth, and that sex will differentiate their bodies as it does at present? Then if we admit this, they at once deduce from our admission conclusions involving the grossest materialism. Thus, while they maintain the resurrection of the body as a whole, they deny the resurrection of its separate members.

    The present is not a time to speak rhetorically against a perverse doctrine. Neither the rich vocabulary of Cicero nor the fervid eloquence of Demosthenes could adequately convey the warmth of my feeling, were I to attempt to expose the quibbles by which these heretics, while verbally professing a belief in the resurrection, in their hearts deny it. For their women finger their breasts, slap their chests, pinch their legs and arms, and say, "What will a resurrection profit us if these frail bodies are to rise again? No, if we are to be like angels,2575 we shall have the bodies of angels." That is to say they scorn to rise again with the flesh and bones wherewith even Christ rose...
    "
    ___________________

    I for one do not believe that I will be raised in the decrepit body I now occupy. Science tells us that bodily we all become a new "man" approximately every seven years (every cell in our bodies having been replaced) so the question arises concerning which of my bodies will be raised. Then we have the issues of age and infirmity. Will an infant be raised an infant? Will a leper be raised a leper? etc etc

    I adhere to A.Paul's response: "...someone will say, 'How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?' Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be...But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body...” (1 Cor 15:25-38).

    Your anticipation and insights would be appreciated...
    Last edited by apostoli; 08-10-2015, 07:35 PM.

  • #2
    I don't really understand what the question is.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
      I don't really understand what the question is.
      I did not propose a question, I was seeking your thoughts on the "bodily resurrection" aka "Your anticipation and insights would be appreciated". To keep things simple I'll rephrase using a question:

      Concerning the bodily resurrection: What is your personal hope, anticipation? What are you looking forward to?

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm no scholar, so please be gentle with me here. Since you asked for my own anticipation and insight, I'm responding from that perspective alone. I believe our resurrection will be as physical as Jesus' was. To my mind, there is significance in the way God created us, male and female, individually distinguishable, with a peak in our physical development. It seems clear to me that our individuality would be preserved, that we would be recognizable as ourselves in the resurrection, and that part of that recognizability would be based on physical appearance. Since we know our pain, suffering, and other effects of sin will no longer be a part of us, my hope is that our glorified bodies will represent us perfected, in our best possible physical state. And, since we are told that, when we see Him we'll be like Him, I anticipate we will have non-physical aspects we can only imagine now. Jesus was able to conceal and reveal himself so that he could be recognized or not. He could transcend physical barriers like walls. We're these abilities unique to him, I wonder, or is this part of how we will be like him?

        I disagree with Jerome in his assertion that we will be like the angels. They are an entirely different creation. I believe we will be with them, but not like them, except in our new, immortal and eternal nature.

        Again, this is my heart...not my theological, scholarly position.
        sigpic
        "...so encourage each other and build one another up." ~1 Thessalonians 5:11

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JardinPrayer View Post
          I'm no scholar, so please be gentle with me here. Since you asked for my own anticipation and insight, I'm responding from that perspective alone. I believe our resurrection will be as physical as Jesus' was. To my mind, there is significance in the way God created us, male and female, individually distinguishable, with a peak in our physical development. It seems clear to me that our individuality would be preserved, that we would be recognizable as ourselves in the resurrection, and that part of that recognizability would be based on physical appearance. Since we know our pain, suffering, and other effects of sin will no longer be a part of us, my hope is that our glorified bodies will represent us perfected, in our best possible physical state. And, since we are told that, when we see Him we'll be like Him, I anticipate we will have non-physical aspects we can only imagine now. Jesus was able to conceal and reveal himself so that he could be recognized or not. He could transcend physical barriers like walls. We're these abilities unique to him, I wonder, or is this part of how we will be like him?

          I disagree with Jerome in his assertion that we will be like the angels. They are an entirely different creation. I believe we will be with them, but not like them, except in our new, immortal and eternal nature.

          Again, this is my heart...not my theological, scholarly position.
          Jerome is arguing against the position you're crediting to him.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Jerome is arguing against the position you're crediting to him.
            Yes, he is. I read the last paragraph too quickly. Thank you!
            sigpic
            "...so encourage each other and build one another up." ~1 Thessalonians 5:11

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by apostoli View Post
              I for one do not believe that I will be raised in the decrepit body I now occupy. Science tells us that bodily we all become a new "man" approximately every seven years (every cell in our bodies having been replaced) so the question arises concerning which of my bodies will be raised. Then we have the issues of age and infirmity. Will an infant be raised an infant? Will a leper be raised a leper? etc etc

              I adhere to A.Paul's response: "...someone will say, 'How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?' Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be...But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body...” (1 Cor 15:25-38).

              Your anticipation and insights would be appreciated...
              As far as I know, resurrection of the body doesn't mean the current body just comes back to life. That's zombification, not resurrection. After all, what about people whose bodies have decayed? I believe the point is that we're not just disembodied souls ("our souls go to heaven" is Greek, not Christian), but that there's a transformed body, as described by Paul, and shown by Jesus.

              Comment


              • #8
                To my mind, the resurrection of the body is one of the most important doctrines of Christianity. We cannot even imagine what our new bodies will be like, but I like to imagine them as close to what they are now because that is all we can really know, and our bodies are pretty wonderful even now.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JardinPrayer View Post
                  I'm no scholar, so please be gentle with me here. Since you asked for my own anticipation and insight, I'm responding from that perspective alone. I believe our resurrection will be as physical as Jesus' was. To my mind, there is significance in the way God created us, male and female, individually distinguishable, with a peak in our physical development. It seems clear to me that our individuality would be preserved, that we would be recognizable as ourselves in the resurrection, and that part of that recognizability would be based on physical appearance. Since we know our pain, suffering, and other effects of sin will no longer be a part of us, my hope is that our glorified bodies will represent us perfected, in our best possible physical state. And, since we are told that, when we see Him we'll be like Him, I anticipate we will have non-physical aspects we can only imagine now. Jesus was able to conceal and reveal himself so that he could be recognized or not. He could transcend physical barriers like walls. We're these abilities unique to him, I wonder, or is this part of how we will be like him?

                  Again, this is my heart...not my theological, scholarly position.
                  I'm not so certain about recognition. For instance: earlier I rhetorically asked whether a leper would be raised a leper. I think not. I go with A.Paul, what is sown in imperfection will be raised in perfection (1 Cor 15:42). So, by rule of thumb, most people I now know, will be unrecognisable should they be raised to perfection.

                  That said, there is recognition and recognition. What I consider a funny story: Back in 2003 I was walking around a bazaar at Ephesus. This taxi stopped across the road, the driver got out and shouted towards me "Ozie, Ozie, Ozie. Ooi, ooi, ooi. Got back into his cab and drove off. I was the only caucasian in the place, so figured I was the target of the greeting. Later I asked a Turkish friend how the taxi driver knew I was Australian. I was told: "It is the way you walk". I'm still trying to figure that one out .

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    To my mind, the resurrection of the body is one of the most important doctrines of Christianity. We cannot even imagine what our new bodies will be like, but I like to imagine them as close to what they are now because that is all we can really know, and our bodies are pretty wonderful even now.
                    Apart from the bit I bolded, I'd have to agree.

                    Personally, I don't have any aspirations of going to heaven should I be included in the resurrection of the righteous. What use is flesh and blood in heaven?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                      Apart from the bit I bolded, I'd have to agree.

                      Personally, I don't have any aspirations of going to heaven should I be included in the resurrection of the righteous. What use is flesh and blood in heaven?
                      I have no idea, of course, and do not pretend to know, but why is it that you do not think our current bodies are already pretty wonderful? Are you thinking of disease and decay perhaps, physical suffering and limitations?
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        I have no idea, of course, and do not pretend to know, but why is it that you do not think our current bodies are already pretty wonderful? Are you thinking of disease and decay perhaps, physical suffering and limitations?
                        I don't know of anybody my age that hasn't got major health issues. All things considered I'm in pretty good shape these days. Although, my joints are calcifying which makes little things like walking or getting dressed or typing very much a challenge.

                        My sister tells me I was born albino, though I think that is an exaggeration. Never-the-less, as a child, if I walked under a light bulb I got sun burnt (that is an exaggeration but not too far from my reality). For a lengthy period of my life I was allergic to anything with fur or feathers, and a lot of foods and beverages (those allergies are now returning). Also, until very recently, I had major debilitating gastro problems (inherited) for most of my adult life. So I'm not a big fan of the "flesh and blood" I have endured. I'm hoping that the resurrection delivers me something a lot better

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                          I don't know of anybody my age that hasn't got major health issues. All things considered I'm in pretty good shape these days. Although, my joints are calcifying which makes little things like walking or getting dressed or typing very much a challenge.

                          My sister tells me I was born albino, though I think that is an exaggeration. Never-the-less, as a child, if I walked under a light bulb I got sun burnt (that is an exaggeration but not too far from my reality). For a lengthy period of my life I was allergic to anything with fur or feathers, and a lot of foods and beverages (those allergies are now returning). Also, until very recently, I had major debilitating gastro problems (inherited) for most of my adult life. So I'm not a big fan of the "flesh and blood" I have endured. I'm hoping that the resurrection delivers me something a lot better
                          I'm sure it will!
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                          • #14
                            Josephus's Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades
                            The author describes Hades as having "a lake of unquenchable fire" prepared by God for a future date of judgment. However, both the just and unjust dead are confined in other, separate portions of Hades; all go through a gate guarded by "an archangel with an host", with the just being guided to the right hand toward a region of light called the Bosom of Abraham. The unjust are violently forced toward the left hand by angels, to a place characterized by fire and which emits "hot vapor", from which they can see the just but cannot pass over due to a "chaos deep and large" that serves as a barrier.

                            The author assures the Greeks he is addressing that God will resurrect the dead, raising again their bodies and not transmigrating their souls to different bodies. He insists that God is able to do this, likening the dead body both to sown seed and to material cast into "a potter's furnace, in order to be formed again". The author says that when clothed with their pure resurrected bodies, the just will no longer be subject to disease or misery. The unjust, in contrast, will receive their bodies unchanged, including their original diseases. All (just and unjust) will be brought before Jesus Christ who will come as Judge; the author specifically dismisses Minos and Rhadamanthus, those whom the Greeks believed were judges of the underworld, as the arbiters of mankind's fate. Instead, Christ will exercise "the righteous judgment of the Father towards all men", with everlasting punishment for the wicked and eternal bliss for the righteous. The author exhorts his audience to believe in God in order to participate in the reward of the just.

                            Biblical references[edit]
                            There are many references to the New Testament throughout the "Discourse". For example, the division of the just and unjust to the right and left suggests Matthew 25:32-33; the reference to the Bosom of Abraham and the "chaos" clearly are related to the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31); the comparison of the body to seed that has been planted recalls 1Corinthians 15:37-38; and the committing of all judgment to Christ comes from John 5:22.

                            I have read this discourse many times and find it supported by scripture on many occasions...

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