Faramir's pick for July 5th 2006 ~ The "inside" scoop!!!

[Faramir]

Originally posted by Arimathea in the thread The Purpose-Driven Cynic. on July 4th 2006:

Shalom Johnny,

In a rare stretch of household quiet and renewed interest, I have read your entire post and subsequent pages of comments, and am wondering how it has fared for you since your last post.

I've been out of PDC for 15 years now--actually, I was in on the ground floor of it back in my bible college days in the early 80's. Back then, the ideas that are now swirling through the church were first being formed and articulated in the ministries of men like Jerry Cook, Ron Mehl, Doug Murren, and Bill Hybels. At the time, I thought it was much needed life to the church. One of the early pioneering SS churches where I attended and worked as a staffer ballooned from a small house group to over 5000 people in a few years.

Now I find myself in the strange position of being able to look back on the fruit of the approach from watching it full cycle, even as many are just now getting into it for the first time. The results of the final "fruit inspection" of all of this effort put the final nail in the coffin on the movement for me. I could (and maybe should) write an expose chronicling the spiritual fate of the vast majority of those who were "saved" through this kind of approach, as they hit the tough realities of life in the years to follow. The devastation is truly shocking.

But enough about me. All while this was going on, my Dad was a missionary in China, and was hearing from a distance about all the wonderful church growth that was going on in America. I found it hard to articulate the subtle deceptions of the thing from that distance. But now he has retired and is back in America, and has started to comment that something strange has happened to a lot of the churches here, and it doesn't seem right. (Whew! Thank God for that discernment.)

I must confess, I have not read any of Rick Warren's materials first hand, but immediately recognize it as repetitions of all the same ideas that we were promoting in pastor's conferences back in the 80's. One thing you might be able to help me with however--since I have not been "keeping up" on things since then. Have you run across any serious attempts to defend the movement biblically--using sound exegesis and methods? (not that it can be defended that way--but, rather, as anyone tried?) As I continue to talk and build credibility with my Dad on this issue, I'd like to be sure I'm engaging the strongest defenses possible, and not merely knocking down old straw men.

I sincerely feel for your situation, and do hope you find a way to cope with it biblically, without falling into sarcasm or cynicism. There is--I can testify--life beyond PDC.

Shalom,

Ari

Ari. What a great post, especially coming from someone who was "inside" the movement.

Please, please, please write an "expose" and be sure to PM me when it is done so I can buy the first copy.

[Arimathea]

Ari. What a great post, especially coming from someone who was "inside" the movement.

Please, please, please write an "expose" and be sure to PM me when it is done so I can buy the first copy.

Thanks Faramir,

To do an expose properly would take more time than I have right now--although I will be back at that church this weekend for a wedding--the first time in about 5 years. Every time I go, I find a few old timers and ask around, what happened to so and so--- Oh he's a homosexual now, really? how about this one? Quit church. Oh, how about this one? Divorced. Oh, etc. etc. To track all these folks down and authenticate the stories would be necessary for a real expose. But I will do what I can, which is to abbreviate some of what I've seen in some posts here. If the Lord desires it, he will make a way for me to do the real expose.

God bless you,

Ari

[Faramir]

Thanks Faramir,

To do an expose properly would take more time than I have right now--although I will be back at that church this weekend for a wedding--the first time in about 5 years. Every time I go, I find a few old timers and ask around, what happened to so and so--- Oh he's a homosexual now, really? how about this one? Quit church. Oh, how about this one? Divorced. Oh, etc. etc. To track all these folks down and authenticate the stories would be necessary for a real expose. But I will do what I can, which is to abbreviate some of what I've seen in some posts here. If the Lord desires it, he will make a way for me to do the real expose.

God bless you,

Ari

Well, all I can say is that I have been arguing against the "seeker movement" for about 2 years now. (Having been arguing in favor of it before that, but not very strongly, IOW, even when I was argueing for the PDC, I acknowledged some areas in need of imporvment but touted the "success" in numbers "reached")

Well since then, the most common argument "for" the Seeker Movement has been the quantitative growth. I argue that the end result will most likely be exactly what you described (shallow and/or "X" Christians).

But just your confirmation that there is some substantiation that the outcome is what I suspected, is very encouraging.

[gharfish]

I have Warren's "Purpose Driven Life." I read only the first about 10 days, then stopped; but what would I find 'wrong' if I were to pick it back up, I wonder (?)

Was the "Purpose Drivens" screwy from somewhere within that start, right then and there ? ...or not until later in the ".....Church" one ? Is there a third book or something else with the same theme beyond those ?

I'm only curious; not looking for a quarrel. I thought the first 10 days of the (40 ? total ?) were good. To my shame I pooped out on that book; it was a Christmas present from my Mom and she was quite enthusiastic about it. Her church had a study group formed around it, back in 2003 or 4.

Where else on Johnny EC's thread could I go to get more of the insider's scoop ? --a page and/or post number, I mean.

This surprises me a bit, honestly.