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Thread: Why is the Trinity an essential to there even being a God?

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Why is the Trinity an essential to there even being a God?

    I am of the persuasion that the Christian Trinity explanation is essential to there even being a God. The foundation to accept this is generally denied. The argument can be proposed that if the Trinity is not true that there could not even be a God.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    I am of the persuasion that the Christian Trinity explanation is essential to there even being a God. The foundation to accept this is generally denied. The argument can be proposed that if the Trinity is not true that there could not even be a God.
    Speaking purely theoretically - I can't see why not. A duality or quadrality or whatever doesn't seem to be theoretically out of the question - it is just that God happens to be triune.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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    From the stand point of theory, no. The trinity does not need to exist for there to be a god or God. In fact pre Christian understanding seems to indicate one God's existence not a trinitarian understanding at all. The trinity seems to have come as a later fuller understanding of how God exists. (Think Peter's recognition of Jesus as God at Ceasera Phillipi)
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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Speaking purely theoretically - I can't see why not. A duality or quadrality or whatever doesn't seem to be theoretically out of the question - it is just that God happens to be triune.
    I was not speaking theoretically. But as matter of fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catholicity View Post
    From the stand point of theory, no. The trinity does not need to exist for there to be a god or God. In fact pre Christian understanding seems to indicate one God's existence not a trinitarian understanding at all. The trinity seems to have come as a later fuller understanding of how God exists. (Think Peter's recognition of Jesus as God at Ceasera Phillipi)
    Again I was not speaking theoretically.

    Now how God exists is a matter of fact. One might suppose ignorance of such a fact, but that would not change what is essentially true.

    Now if the trinity is just a mere interpretation then it does not warrant being called an essential of the Christian faith. And on the fact that it is an essential of the Christian faith, if the trinity explanation is not true, then the Christian faith is not true where that interpretation is regarded as a carnal essential of the faith.

    _______________________________________

    If the Trinity is an eternal truth about God, then it is essential regarding God. If it is mere matter of interpretation, and not essential to there being God. Then the concept is false. Either it is essentially true or it is not essentially true. Which is it? People have been murdered for denial of the Trinity.

    That God has always been those three Persons a fundamental truth. There would be no God otherwise.
    Last edited by 37818; 08-16-2015 at 12:11 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    I am of the persuasion that the Christian Trinity explanation is essential to there even being a God. The foundation to accept this is generally denied. The argument can be proposed that if the Trinity is not true that there could not even be a God.
    I believe that arguments that the Trinity is not true, and whether there is a God or not are separate arguments.

    I do not believe there is a sound specific argument nor specific reference for the Trinity in the Old Testament, which creates a problem for its necessity for the nature of God's existence as Trinitarian, which on the other hand I believe is inherently unknown from the human perspective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I believe that arguments that the Trinity is not true, and whether there is a God or not are separate arguments.
    Why is God not a Trinity?


    I do not believe there is a sound specific argument nor specific reference for the Trinity in the Old Testament, which creates a problem for its necessity for the nature of God's existence as Trinitarian, which on the other hand I believe is inherently unknown from the human perspective.
    Do you believe God appeared to Moses in that burning bush? That the invisible God appeared to Abraham? That God had His localized Spirit/Breath move over the yet without form earth in the 6 day formation of the earth?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I believe that arguments that the Trinity is not true, and whether there is a God or not are separate arguments.
    They are separate arguments.
    With the Judeo/Christian tradition holding that man is created in the image and likeness of God: i.e. as an analogue of God, the trinity becomes easy to understand at its most basic level. Man being body, soul, and spirit is himself a trinity. The Bible makes reference to the mind of the flesh and the mind of the (person's) spirit - equivalent to the Freudian id and super-ego. There are major differences in man between body, soul, and spirit which are not commensurate with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: particularly with regard to the composition (corporeal/non corporeal). Nor can a human's body act independently of soul and spirit (insofar as I can tell), but their counterparts of God can.

    I do not believe there is a sound specific argument nor specific reference for the Trinity in the Old Testament, which creates a problem for its necessity for the nature of God's existence as Trinitarian, which on the other hand I believe is inherently unknown from the human perspective.
    Certainly with respect to the Hebrew language scriptures: explicit, no - implicit, yes, and particularly with regard to the person of the Holy Spirit. The Aramaic Scriptures (Targum Pesshita) make a distinction between the Memra of God and God - though still referring to the Memra of God as God - with those references showing the Memra of the Old Testament to be the Logos of the New.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Why is God not a Trinity?
    Odd question. I do not believe God is Trinity, because I believe, like most Jews, in pure Monotheism. Personally I do not believe God can be defined as anything other than God.


    Do you believe God appeared to Moses in that burning bush? That the invisible God appeared to Abraham? That God had His localized Spirit/Breath move over the yet without form earth in the 6 day formation of the earth?
    Yes, and so do the Jews. If you believe it, it is a witness of God, but not the Trinity. That is a stretch, and a latter day interpretation.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-26-2015 at 05:40 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    They are separate arguments.
    With the Judeo/Christian tradition holding that man is created in the image and likeness of God: i.e. as an analogue of God, the trinity becomes easy to understand at its most basic level. Man being body, soul, and spirit is himself a trinity. The Bible makes reference to the mind of the flesh and the mind of the (person's) spirit - equivalent to the Freudian id and super-ego. There are major differences in man between body, soul, and spirit which are not commensurate with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: particularly with regard to the composition (corporeal/non corporeal). Nor can a human's body act independently of soul and spirit (insofar as I can tell), but their counterparts of God can.
    I do not consider these parallels to be adequate to justify the Trinity.

    Certainly with respect to the Hebrew language scriptures: explicit, no - implicit, yes, and particularly with regard to the person of the Holy Spirit. The Aramaic Scriptures (Targum Pesshita) make a distinction between the Memra of God and God - though still referring to the Memra of God as God - with those references showing the Memra of the Old Testament to be the Logos of the New.
    Neither the Jews, Muslims, Baha'is nor I consider this an adequate explanation to justify the Trinity. A description of the manifestation of God in this world described in OT scripture is not adequate justification for a separate another 'person' of God, nor a Trinitarian belief.

    If the concept of the Trinity is true and essential it would have been more specifically defined in the OT.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-26-2015 at 06:01 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Odd question. I do not believe God is Trinity, because I believe, like most Jews, in pure Monotheism. Personally I do not believe God can be defined as anything other than God.
    And God's identity?

    Yes, and so do the Jews. If you believe it, it is a witness of God, but not the Trinity. That is a stretch, and a latter day interpretation.
    So God as a finite being does all those things. And talks to himself.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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