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Why is the Trinity an essential to there even being a God?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The One and only One God and indivisible as confirmed throughout the Old Testament.
    Which is true BTW. How is God's identity revealed by the Hebrew holy scripture? And that identity is?
    Last edited by 37818; 08-27-2015, 03:58 PM.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Indeed - the fundamental oneness of God does not change. Nor does the fundamental oneness of the generic human.
      True and the Doctrine of the Trinity, and the claim of Jesus Christ being an incarnate God is a heresy concerning the fundamental oneness of God.

      Is it your claim that the New Testament is in conflict with the Old Testament about the identity of Christ as God? Are you familiar with the archaeological findings that show the Masoretic Text - upon which modern Hebrew scripture is based - is not the same as the Hebrew text prior to 150AD?
      Yes, no problem. Neither do the Jews have a problem with these texts.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #18
        An estimated 7000 discrepancies, and with many of them involving prophecies concerning the messiah and identifying him as God himself - and the Jews have no problem with the discrepancies... despite decrying the Septuagint as a flawed translation: but it is the Septuagint that shows consistency with texts pre-dating AD 150, where the current Hebrew scripture does not.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          True and the Doctrine of the Trinity, and the claim of Jesus Christ being an incarnate God is a heresy concerning the fundamental oneness of God.
          Christians do not claim Jesus in an incarnate God. That would make him another God. He is the incarnation of the one God. There is only one God, not two or three.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • #20
            God incarnate means .... God made (having become) /flesh/, as at John 1. ... "flesh" is contextually implicit.

            Actually - that's wrong. In+carnare = in (the) flesh
            Last edited by tabibito; 08-28-2015, 12:26 AM.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              An estimated 7000 discrepancies, and with many of them involving prophecies concerning the messiah and identifying him as God himself - and the Jews have no problem with the discrepancies... despite decrying the Septuagint as a flawed translation: but it is the Septuagint that shows consistency with texts pre-dating AD 150, where the current Hebrew scripture does not.
              Not really the topic of the thread, but nonetheless these problems of consistency and history extend throughout the OT, as it occurs in the Bible, and NT. You need to be more specific how this applies. I believe you are exaggerated the controversy among Jews. Jews do not rely on specific necessary interpretation of text as do Christians. Actually pragmatism and Midrash rule in Judaism..
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                Christians do not claim Jesus in an incarnate God. That would make him another God. He is the incarnation of the one God. There is only one God, not two or three.
                Double speak and contradiction. Regardless of how you word it, the definition of the Trinity is 'three separate and distinct) persons' in one God, which is not different than the Vedic view of the Brahman and the Vedic Gods. It is a heresy to claim the reincarnation of God regardless.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  God incarnate means .... God made (having become) /flesh/, as at John 1. ... "flesh" is contextually implicit.
                  Disagree, I consider it an interpretation. I believe in a metaphysical and spiritual interpretation of the nature of 'God's Word' not physical.

                  Actually - that's wrong. In+carnare = in (the) flesh
                  It is a heresy to make the claim regardless of how you word it.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Disagree, I consider it an interpretation. I believe in a metaphysical and spiritual interpretation of the nature of 'God's Word' not physical.
                    So do I - when it is appropriate.

                    It is a heresy to make the claim regardless of how you word it.
                    I've been a heretic since way back in the when. Your point?
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      So do I - when it is appropriate.

                      I've been a heretic since way back in the when. Your point?
                      My point? Belief in Jesus Christ as the incarnate God is a heresy. I believe the belief in the literal Trinity is a false Doctrine, and a form of Polytheism.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        My point? Belief in Jesus Christ as the incarnate God is a heresy. I believe the belief in the literal Trinity is a false Doctrine, and a form of Polytheism.
                        There is only one verse of scripture needed to make a Jew sit up and take notice when he makes that same claim - Zechariah 12:10. Once that has been brought into play, real discussion becomes possible - either that, or he'll get all huffy and refuse to continue the debate.
                        Last edited by tabibito; 08-28-2015, 06:30 PM.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Double speak and contradiction. Regardless of how you word it, the definition of the Trinity is 'three separate and distinct) persons' in one God, which is not different than the Vedic view of the Brahman and the Vedic Gods. It is a heresy to claim the reincarnation of God regardless.
                          Your understanding of the Trinity is wrong. Since the correct view of the three persons who are God, they are the God who is without division without parts. The three persons are God are not parts of God since God is not made up of parts.
                          Last edited by 37818; 08-28-2015, 07:27 PM.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            That God is one person, not a triumvirate, is true. That God is indivisible is false - Only the Logos became flesh: not the Father, and not the Holy Spirit.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              That God is one person, not a triumvirate, is true. That God is indivisible is false - Only the Logos became flesh: not the Father, and not the Holy Spirit.
                              The Logos was both "with God" (vs. 1, 2) and being "was God" (vs. 1, 3). What "was God" is not what changed. God has no parts though the three Persons are Him, the one indivisible God.
                              Last edited by 37818; 08-29-2015, 07:43 AM.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                That God is one person, not a triumvirate, is true. That God is indivisible is false - Only the Logos became flesh: not the Father, and not the Holy Spirit.
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                The Logos was both "with God" (vs. 1, 2) and being "was God" (vs. 1, 3). What "was God" is not what changed. God has no parts though the three Persons are Him, the one indivisible God.
                                I am no expert on the Trinity, but the entire mystery, as far as I can see, is contained within the dogmatic statement of the IV Lateran Council, if memory serves me reasonably well, namely that the Persons of the Trinity are only separate insofar as they are in relation to each other. Effectively, this seems to be defining God as Relational or Interpersonal rather than lonely or divisible. How could God be Love without being Interpersonal? God the Son cannot be thought of as incarnate except in relation to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Does that make God divisible or indivisible?
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                                Comment

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