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Thread: Why is the Trinity an essential to there even being a God?

  1. #21
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    An estimated 7000 discrepancies, and with many of them involving prophecies concerning the messiah and identifying him as God himself - and the Jews have no problem with the discrepancies... despite decrying the Septuagint as a flawed translation: but it is the Septuagint that shows consistency with texts pre-dating AD 150, where the current Hebrew scripture does not.
    Not really the topic of the thread, but nonetheless these problems of consistency and history extend throughout the OT, as it occurs in the Bible, and NT. You need to be more specific how this applies. I believe you are exaggerated the controversy among Jews. Jews do not rely on specific necessary interpretation of text as do Christians. Actually pragmatism and Midrash rule in Judaism..
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  2. #22
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Christians do not claim Jesus in an incarnate God. That would make him another God. He is the incarnation of the one God. There is only one God, not two or three.
    Double speak and contradiction. Regardless of how you word it, the definition of the Trinity is 'three separate and distinct) persons' in one God, which is not different than the Vedic view of the Brahman and the Vedic Gods. It is a heresy to claim the reincarnation of God regardless.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #23
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    God incarnate means .... God made (having become) /flesh/, as at John 1. ... "flesh" is contextually implicit.
    Disagree, I consider it an interpretation. I believe in a metaphysical and spiritual interpretation of the nature of 'God's Word' not physical.

    Actually - that's wrong. In+carnare = in (the) flesh
    It is a heresy to make the claim regardless of how you word it.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. #24
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Disagree, I consider it an interpretation. I believe in a metaphysical and spiritual interpretation of the nature of 'God's Word' not physical.
    So do I - when it is appropriate.

    It is a heresy to make the claim regardless of how you word it.
    I've been a heretic since way back in the when. Your point?
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  5. #25
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    So do I - when it is appropriate.

    I've been a heretic since way back in the when. Your point?
    My point? Belief in Jesus Christ as the incarnate God is a heresy. I believe the belief in the literal Trinity is a false Doctrine, and a form of Polytheism.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  6. #26
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    My point? Belief in Jesus Christ as the incarnate God is a heresy. I believe the belief in the literal Trinity is a false Doctrine, and a form of Polytheism.
    There is only one verse of scripture needed to make a Jew sit up and take notice when he makes that same claim - Zechariah 12:10. Once that has been brought into play, real discussion becomes possible - either that, or he'll get all huffy and refuse to continue the debate.
    Last edited by tabibito; 08-28-2015 at 05:30 PM.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  7. #27
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Double speak and contradiction. Regardless of how you word it, the definition of the Trinity is 'three separate and distinct) persons' in one God, which is not different than the Vedic view of the Brahman and the Vedic Gods. It is a heresy to claim the reincarnation of God regardless.
    Your understanding of the Trinity is wrong. Since the correct view of the three persons who are God, they are the God who is without division without parts. The three persons are God are not parts of God since God is not made up of parts.
    Last edited by 37818; 08-28-2015 at 06:27 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  8. #28
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    That God is one person, not a triumvirate, is true. That God is indivisible is false - Only the Logos became flesh: not the Father, and not the Holy Spirit.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  9. #29
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    That God is one person, not a triumvirate, is true. That God is indivisible is false - Only the Logos became flesh: not the Father, and not the Holy Spirit.
    The Logos was both "with God" (vs. 1, 2) and being "was God" (vs. 1, 3). What "was God" is not what changed. God has no parts though the three Persons are Him, the one indivisible God.
    Last edited by 37818; 08-29-2015 at 06:43 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  10. #30
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    That God is one person, not a triumvirate, is true. That God is indivisible is false - Only the Logos became flesh: not the Father, and not the Holy Spirit.
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The Logos was both "with God" (vs. 1, 2) and being "was God" (vs. 1, 3). What "was God" is not what changed. God has no parts though the three Persons are Him, the one indivisible God.
    I am no expert on the Trinity, but the entire mystery, as far as I can see, is contained within the dogmatic statement of the IV Lateran Council, if memory serves me reasonably well, namely that the Persons of the Trinity are only separate insofar as they are in relation to each other. Effectively, this seems to be defining God as Relational or Interpersonal rather than lonely or divisible. How could God be Love without being Interpersonal? God the Son cannot be thought of as incarnate except in relation to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Does that make God divisible or indivisible?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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