The need for civility in Gov't, I.e., Loving Our Enemies!

**Da Lone-Warrior** · August 2nd 2003, 04:00 PM

Here is a link to yesterday's Newshour with Mark Shields and David Brooks. They start of by describing the level of acrimony that the legislature has sunk to. I don't think it is right for tensions to get so bad among our nation's leaders. I don't think it's good for our country.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/polit...03/sb_8-1.html

How can we prevent this from happening? We need to learn to love our enemies, politically-speaking, because there will always be loads of conflicts in politics and so there will always be many enemies.

dlw

**chickenman** · August 2nd 2003, 07:35 PM

Theres too much extremism. People have a fondness for seeing things strictly in black and white.

**Da Lone-Warrior** · August 2nd 2003, 07:42 PM

chickenman:

Theres too much extremism. People have a fondness for seeing things strictly in black and white.

I think how the Bush Administration didn't play a more moderate policy after its extremely close election and then how it played smart politics(following up all the Dems issues with their own versions, planning the Iraq Invasion in September to ensure it dominated the elections:which worked) have all contributed to the acrimony in the gov't.

The Republican Party has done well in capturing and keeping captured the Gov't and with such "wondrous" prospects coming from the Democratic contenders for president, it ain't surprising the Dems are seeing Red. Now we have this homosexuality and marriage issue looming large and it looks like politics are going to get more vituperous in the days ahead.

Kindof makes me glad I live/work in Mexico.

dlw

**themuzicman** · August 2nd 2003, 08:42 PM

Seems to me that the liberals started all this with the "Republicans want to starve children and the elderly" and "Republicans are evil" mantra in the mid-90s.

In fact, republcans remain generally civil towards the other side of the aisle, in spite of the lack of civility in return.

:Muz:

**wienerdog** · August 2nd 2003, 11:54 PM

The problem is a lack of humility. It's the failure to consider the possibility that one might be wrong, and one's opponent might be right. That's pretty much the problem with everything.

I think Bush did act pretty bipartisan at the beginning of his term. I remember they were calling him and Ted Kennedy "the odd couple" for spending so much time together, trying to figure out how to build inroads to bring the parties together.

**Socrates** · August 3rd 2003, 03:07 AM

chickenman:

Theres too much extremism. People have a fondness for seeing things strictly in black and white.

From someone who is extreme in his hatred of bible-believing Christians

dlw2003:

The Republican Party has done well in capturing and keeping captured the Gov't and with such "wondrous" prospects coming from the Democratic contenders for president, it ain't surprising the Dems are seeing Red. Now we have this homosexuality and marriage issue looming large and it looks like politics are going to get more vituperous in the days ahead.

Well, if it means that even the "yellow dog Democrats" see what a vile anti-Christian party the Democrats have become, good.

**chickenman** · August 3rd 2003, 06:32 AM

From someone who is extreme in his hatred of bible-believing Christians

thats you seeing in black and white again. I don't hate bible believing christians, I simply don't have any respect for creationists - theres a difference

**Rahab** · August 3rd 2003, 09:02 AM

Bonjour dlw...even though I am not a US citizen, I am affected by politics as the US have been my place of residency for a long time. I feel for this nation and its people.

Since the last presidential elections, I have watched the manipulation of christian individuals in order to rally them to supporting any decisions made by this present administration. I do not know where the wisdom of comparing those decisions to the character of Christ has gone. I do not know where the concern to use the gift of reason to evaluate if the claim matches Christ's teachings has gone.
On one hand, there is a leadership which claims to act " under God's authority". That concept alone is unacceptable to me as it denies the pluralism of this democracy not intended to force any religious agenda on anyone. There is also the acceptance of so many american christians who do not question those decisions as they are presented as " God's authority". In the meantime, as I recieve feed back from friends from other nations, the overall consensus is that the witness of " this nation under God" projects arrogance. As long as " God says it is OK", any extreme is permitted. And the sense of what may be wrong has been discarded by using " God's authority". To the point that the citizenship of atheists was publicaly questionned by GW Bush.
The manipulation of the faith of american christians to serve a political agenda is revolting.
The esssence of the message and teachings of Christ is being ignored.
Has american christianity led its people to make God in their own image rather than promoting Christlikeness?
Dlw... I find myself grieving that state of spiritual apathy.

**wienerdog** · August 3rd 2003, 03:54 PM

Today @ 02:02 PM post located here
Rahab:

Bonjour dlw...even though I am not a US citizen, I am affected by politics as the US have been my place of residency for a long time. I feel for this nation and its people.

Since the last presidential elections, I have watched the manipulation of christian individuals in order to rally them to supporting any decisions made by this present administration. I do not know where the wisdom of comparing those decisions to the character of Christ has gone. I do not know where the concern to use the gift of reason to evaluate if the claim matches Christ's teachings has gone.
On one hand, there is a leadership which claims to act " under God's authority". That concept alone is unacceptable to me as it denies the pluralism of this democracy not intended to force any religious agenda on anyone. There is also the acceptance of so many american christians who do not question those decisions as they are presented as " God's authority". In the meantime, as I recieve feed back from friends from other nations, the overall consensus is that the witness of " this nation under God" projects arrogance. As long as " God says it is OK", any extreme is permitted. And the sense of what may be wrong has been discarded by using " God's authority". To the point that the citizenship of atheists was publicaly questionned by GW Bush.
The manipulation of the faith of american christians to serve a political agenda is revolting.
The esssence of the message and teachings of Christ is being ignored.
Has american christianity led its people to make God in their own image rather than promoting Christlikeness?
Dlw... I find myself grieving that state of spiritual apathy.

As a US citizen, I don't know what you're talking about. There may be a lot of pro-Bush Christians on TWeb, but that doesn't speak for all American Christians. I lived in Europe, and heard all kinds of negative stuff like this about Americans. When I asked them what the hell they were talking about, they were shocked. It had just never occurred to them to challenge the claims that Americans are religious, or arrogant, or see themselves as God's holy nation or whatever. Just because the popular media says something, it doesn't make it true. The manipulation of non-Americans to think that these propositions are true is what's disgusting. Think.

**Epoetker** · August 3rd 2003, 04:24 PM

I have watched the manipulation of christian individuals in order to rally them to supporting any decisions made by this present administration.

What makes you, presuming that in fact you are a Christian, immune to the same manipulation by your own government?

I do not know where the wisdom of comparing those decisions to the character of Christ has gone.

We compare them all here!

I do not know where the concern to use the gift of reason to evaluate if the claim matches Christ's teachings has gone.

*Waves "TheologyWeb is #1 for these Christlike Evaluation!" flag*

On one hand, there is a leadership which claims to act " under God's authority". That concept alone is unacceptable to me as it denies the pluralism of this democracy not intended to force any religious agenda on anyone.

So we aren't. One can act under God's authority and still enforce pluralism. God himself made provisions for respecting the rights of the alien in the Old Testament.

There is also the acceptance of so many american christians who do not question those decisions as they are presented as " God's authority".

Vive la difference!

In the meantime, as I recieve feed back from friends from other nations, the overall consensus is that the witness of " this nation under God" projects arrogance.

The powerful will always be seen as arrogant by the non-powerful.

As long as " God says it is OK", any extreme is permitted.

Have we nuked Saudi Arabia yet? We could, but we haven't. We have gone nowhere near the extremes that many Americans have advocated. We have scrupulously avoided taking action too quickly or without enough deliberation. I trust this administration because I recognize their caution.

And the sense of what may be wrong has been discarded by using " God's authority". To the point that the citizenship of atheists was publicaly questionned by GW Bush.

Many have among themselves called that into question through their actions and advocacy.

The manipulation of the faith of american christians to serve a political agenda is revolting.

I don't think that you would find it revolting if the political agenda was peace, love, and puppies for everyone.

The esssence of the message and teachings of Christ is being ignored.

It is not. Please elaborate here or elsewhere if you think otherwise. This board is made for challenge and counter-challenge, not venting. (The Locker room serves that purpose.)

Has american christianity led its people to make God in their own image rather than promoting Christlikeness?

America provides the freedom necessary to seek the liberty and life that Christ wants us to have, and have abundantly! American Christianity is foremost in recognizing and promoting this discovery.

Dlw... I find myself grieving that state of spiritual apathy.

We are not all apathetic, far from it. We have so many differing types among us, being xenophilic, that we're hard to categorize. But seeking the best of Christians here will be very successful if you know where to look.

**Da Lone-Warrior** · August 3rd 2003, 05:01 PM

Rahab:

Bonjour dlw...even though I am not a US citizen, I am affected by politics as the US have been my place of residency for a long time. I feel for this nation and its people.

Since the last presidential elections, I have watched the manipulation of christian individuals in order to rally them to supporting any decisions made by this present administration. I do not know where the wisdom of comparing those decisions to the character of Christ has gone. I do not know where the concern to use the gift of reason to evaluate if the claim matches Christ's teachings has gone.
On one hand, there is a leadership which claims to act " under God's authority". That concept alone is unacceptable to me as it denies the pluralism of this democracy not intended to force any religious agenda on anyone. There is also the acceptance of so many american christians who do not question those decisions as they are presented as " God's authority". In the meantime, as I recieve feed back from friends from other nations, the overall consensus is that the witness of " this nation under God" projects arrogance. As long as " God says it is OK", any extreme is permitted. And the sense of what may be wrong has been discarded by using " God's authority". To the point that the citizenship of atheists was publicaly questionned by GW Bush.
The manipulation of the faith of american christians to serve a political agenda is revolting.
The esssence of the message and teachings of Christ is being ignored.
Has american christianity led its people to make God in their own image rather than promoting Christlikeness?
Dlw... I find myself grieving that state of spiritual apathy.

Bonjour Rahab,
Je souffre aussi sur l'avenir de mon pais!

I think that many Christians in the US have generally failed to develop substantial habits of political reflection and tend to be easy to manipulate and rather predictable in what they say regarding politics.

If you read the book, "The Culture of Disbelief" by Stephen Carter, you get a sound reflection on the meaning of separation of Church and State as being their autonomy not segregation as well as a chastisement of how so much invocation of God and what-not in USpolitics is very trivializing.

I, having spent a portion of my life interacting with int'ls, grieve over the terrible collective witness the US makes in allowing any given political agenda to be aligned as "Christian".

One can have faith-based reasons for seeking political reforms, but one should never claim that it is the "Christian" perspective. This undermines the civility and diffidence required for a democratic system to work.

dlw

**Da Lone-Warrior** · August 3rd 2003, 05:12 PM

response to Epoetker's response to Rahab.

Epoetker:

What makes you, presuming that in fact you are a Christian, immune to the same manipulation by your own government?

No, but distinctions can be made. In France, they do have fairly widely dispersed habits of political reflection.

The powerful will always be seen as arrogant by the non-powerful.

We are called to be humble and, thus, to recognize our fallibility and need for checks and balances, regardless of what country we are from.

The basic point Rahab is making is that the US, in general, doesn't spend that much time scrutinizing the actions/decisions of its gov't and is subject to manipulation, including the crass invocation of the name of God over what often are the quite fallible policies we make.

The extent to which the decisions made in this country affects others in other countries ensures that we will affect people's lives and they will not have any voice over the determination of those decisions. This tends to piss people off and when we say God Bless You in the act of doing so, we tend to discourage non-Christians or those who have fallen away from Christianity, as is common in Europe, to not be open to reconsidering their position or understanding of what Christianity is about.

dlw

**Rahab** · August 3rd 2003, 06:46 PM

Today @ 08:54 PM post located here
wienerdog:

As a US citizen, I don't know what you're talking about. There may be a lot of pro-Bush Christians on TWeb, but that doesn't speak for all American Christians. I lived in Europe, and heard all kinds of negative stuff like this about Americans. When I asked them what the hell they were talking about, they were shocked. It had just never occurred to them to challenge the claims that Americans are religious, or arrogant, or see themselves as God's holy nation or whatever. Just because the popular media says something, it doesn't make it true. The manipulation of non-Americans to think that these propositions are true is what's disgusting. Think.

Oh .. you thought my comments were based soly on cyber communication... to clarify I have been a US resident for 20 years and in various parts of the US.
I do not see a majority of american christians who question the insertion of religion in the present government. I do as I browse thru the Americans United newsletter. But is not there an acceptance from most christians in America as to the violation of the Separation of Church and State? Are most christians in America wanting to see a non religious government? I know as a christian I wish to support the Separation of Church and State. And I believe I am in the minority.

**Rahab** · August 3rd 2003, 07:14 PM

Today @ 09:24 PM post located here
Epoetker:

What makes you, presuming that in fact you are a Christian, immune to the same manipulation by your own government?

I live , work, pay my taxes and contribute to American society in the US. The french government is strongly secular. Chirac does not appeal to any particular religious notion to promote his political agenda. If any manipulation it certainly does not apply to religious notions especialy christian faith.

We compare them all here! I do not believe I questionned the value of this forum. What I questionned is the apathy I encounter personaly among some christians in my daily life experience.

*Waves "TheologyWeb is #1 for these Christlike Evaluation!" flag* Yes... Christlikeness is a challenge.

So we aren't. One can act under God's authority and still enforce pluralism. God himself made provisions for respecting the rights of the alien in the Old Testament.

By pluralism I mean the fact that this nation is not soly made of christians.

Vive la difference! absolument.....

The powerful will always be seen as arrogant by the non-powerful.
You are expressing your own perception as to why people will have the courage to challenge. Powerful... what a dangerous word.

Have we nuked Saudi Arabia yet? We could, but we haven't. We have gone nowhere near the extremes that many Americans have advocated. We have scrupulously avoided taking action too quickly or without enough deliberation. I trust this administration because I recognize their caution.

When you use the pronoun " we"..... are you implying that you represent american christians in general or that you are a very active part of this administration. That touch of conformism behind that " we" is interesting. I wish to see the individuality of people rather than a " borg" phenomenon.

Many have among themselves called that into question through their actions and advocacy.
What I question here is how a President who is supposed to represent an entire nation can use demeaning terms towards a group of individuals who happen to not abide to his own religious beliefs. How many christians have questionned that statement?

I don't think that you would find it revolting if the political agenda was peace, love, and puppies for everyone.

That is true.... except for the puppies. Some may like birdies or kitties better.

It is not. Please elaborate here or elsewhere if you think otherwise. This board is made for challenge and counter-challenge, not venting. (The Locker room serves that purpose.)

I do not see Christlikeness in the actions and decisions made by this administration under the claims of being a " Nation under God". That was my whole point. As to my communication in my post, you might want to allow the mods to decide whether or not it is appropriate.

America provides the freedom necessary to seek the liberty and life that Christ wants us to have, and have abundantly! American Christianity is foremost in recognizing and promoting this discovery.
What about all the americans who do not identify to your definition and do not consider Christ's will to be what directs their lives?

We are not all apathetic, far from it. We have so many differing types among us, being xenophilic, that we're hard to categorize. But seeking the best of Christians here will be very successful if you know where to look.

Again.... " here" to me is my daily life and the multitude of contacts I have with american people of all backgrounds. Those who are christians and those who are not christians.

**Epoetker** · August 3rd 2003, 08:01 PM

No, but distinctions can be made. In France, they do have fairly widely dispersed habits of political reflection.

As do we. By contrast, the political machinert in France is organized as such that the only viable choices come election time are mid-left, extreme-left, and Le Pen, who's hard to categorize. Chirac was considered conservative, which is pretty scary by conservative standards here.

We are called to be humble and, thus, to recognize our fallibility and need for checks and balances, regardless of what country we are from.

We recognize it more than anyone else in the world, most pertinently because we are comprised of all the people who left those cultures for this one. We are also called to take action against the evil and the unjust. Paralysis through moral clouding is a nasty tactic by those with few moral scruples themselves, and too often leads to either a maitenance of the status quo or doing nothing.