Prager University on Abortion.

[Sea of red]

I am sure the Nazi's used that argument against the Jews. Since they were not persons, it was OK to kill them.

Seriously? You complained that I had to rephrase it, but I did so because the whole point of the question had sailed clear over your head and your answer didn't even pertain to the question I actually asked. The point is still sailing over your head!
If you still can't see the similarities in various groups of people declaring groups of inconvenient people as "not really human" so that they can kill them, then I can't help you. It's really very basic. You're just dodging. If the answer is so obvious to you, why can't you just come out and say it?

Wow. You know you've won an argument when someone breaks out an Nazi comparison.

Antisemitism is something that is hard to understand. A lot of Nazi ideology had to do with anti-intellectualism - especially the kind of Marxist schools that were becoming popular in Germany at the time. The collapse of the Weimar republic and the treaties of WWI pissed a lot of Germans off. People had a distrust of establishments, academia, and the hierarchies in government.

The roots of antisemitism are more than just religion. A lot of it has to with envy and jealousy of the accomplishments of the Jewish people. Jewish man are successful in just about everything they do really. Everything from science, philosophy, economics, banking, business, medicine, and government are things that Jewish people excel at in ways that breed resentment and hatred in other groups. Jewish men often find careers in finance because they are taught at a young the value of a dollar - as well other responsibilities. This was no different in Germany and when the country became economically challenged, antisemitic groups fingered them, and other intellectual groups for the strains Germany was experiencing.

Jealousy, envy, and scapegoating were the true foundations of the antisemitic thought at the time. The Nazi's capitalized on the opportunity and then used Social Darwinism and some aspects of Christianity to further justify their racist politics. Why? One was to satisfy the right of center intellectuals, and the other was to satisfy the most radical of the Christian population.

The real propaganda of the Nazi's was the diabolical brush the Jews were painted with, while the eugenics and religious justification came secondary to the propaganda of the time. " the Jews are trying to destroy our economy!", " the Jews are trying to control the world!", and whatever other irrational delusions/propaganda they had the time were common place to get the public support. That was the main justification for the "they're not human!" propaganda.

I don't expect this to satisfy you, and I'm you'll go ahead with the analogies. But I figured I'd give it a shot anyway.

[Sea of red]

So we should outlaw all drugs and alcohol as well as Micky D's since they have the same side effects you just described.


Hey, there's a solvent called dihydrogen monoxide that kills hundreds if not thousands each year. We should outlaw it. too, right?

I think conservatives might have already started a war on that one.

[QuantaFille]

I asked for evidence that that was what the Nazi's actually did. Others then happily chimed in with evidence that was the opposite of this. So far all anyone has mentioned the Nazi's actually doing is saying why the Jew's were bad, not "not really human" or whatever. You've yet to even begin to clear the argumentative hurdles involved to make your claim.

Did you actually read what others posted about this? Here, I'll repost some (please read them this time):

I'll take that one. The Nazi propaganda and efforts to dehumanize the Jews is well documented. It ran the gamut between referring to the Jews as evil, parasites, lower or lesser race, inhuman, vermin, and nonhuman.

Much of the pro abortion language strongly resembles the Nazi propaganda. If you ( general) didn't spend so much time pretending that the analogy cannot be valid and a lot more actually understanding why the analogy is being drawn your arguments would be a lot less dismissive and therefore less worthy of being dismissed themselves.

1. Yes the Nazi's considered the Jews to be subhuman
http://www.holocaustresearchproject....termensch.html
" Just as the night rises against the day, the light and dark are in eternal conflict. So too, is the subhuman the greatest enemy of the dominant species on earth, mankind. The subhuman is a biological creature, crafted by nature, which has hands, legs, eyes and mouth, even the semblance of a brain. Nevertheless, this terrible creature is only a partial human being.

Although it has features similar to a human, the subhuman is lower on the spiritual and psychological scale than any animal. Inside of this creature lies wild and unrestrained passions: an incessant need to destroy, filled with the most primitive desires, chaos and coldhearted villainy. "

But that wasn't the point I was making. I was saying cultures throughout time, including the Nazis, categorized their victims as not being persons in order to legally kill or experiment or sell them, without feeling guilt. It is what YOU and PP do when you claim that a fetus is not a person (like your idiotic argument that an acorn is not a tree) - You dismiss their worth as human beings by claiming they have no rights because they are not persons. Congratulations, you are a modern day Nazi.

Please read the whole article Sparko linked to. You may find your eyes opened a bit concerning what the Nazis thought. Perhaps the argument that abortionists are like Nazis will finally make sense to you.

I have heard a lot of abortionists imply that the child him/herself decided to invade the mother's body against her will and has earned death for his/her actions. (e.g. "evil parasite", etc.) Their claims, especially once the "evil" factor is accounted for, still sound an awful lot like what the Nazis were saying about the Jews. Psychic Missile agreed that the amount of force used against a hostile invader must be proportional to the threat, and then says it's OK to kill an unborn child which leads me to believe he thinks an unborn child is a severe threat to the mother's wellbeing. Do you agree with him? Are unborn children evil parasites?

As an aside, I've also heard abortionists say that they don't think the baby will ever leave the mother's body if left alone and must be forcefully removed. Did all of you sleep through biology classes in school? Do any of you actually know what pregnancy and babies actually ARE? Unborn children aren't the ones whose actions put them where they are, and they DO eventually come out on their own. Therefore they are not hostile invaders.

This isn't a matter of points sailing over my head. You think abortion/pp is like Nazi's. I get your point. I think your point is dumb on the face of it and poorly supported otherwise. That you are unable to actually make your point to someone who doesn't immediately agree with you is a failure on your part, not mine, so perhaps a better use of your time would be to work on your rhetoric instead of complaining that I just don't understand you.

Basically, you're firing off a half cocked argument and complaining that I'm not playing along properly. Meh

You DID misunderstand my initial question. Instead of answering, you went off on a topic that was, at best, tangentially related to the question. I never asked about the differences/similarities in what was done to the victims, I asked about the justification for it. I've explained this already. Would better rhetoric help you understand? Silly me, here I was thinking all along that maybe logic would help but it still seems to be lost on you.

[QuantaFille]

You've never heard of morning sickness? Stretch marks? Pregnancy brain? Post-partum depression? Post-partum bleeding? Maternal mortality? Are you aware that in most of Africa, women have, at best, a 1 in 33 chance of dying due to pregnancy and birth?

Wow, yeah, stretch marks are TOTALLY a reason to take the life of a fellow human being.

[/sarcasm]

I have a hard time taking you seriously, in case you hadn't noticed.

[Darth Xena]

I think conservatives might have already started a war on that one.

You got that one right.

[Teallaura]

Wow, yeah, stretch marks are TOTALLY a reason to take the life of a fellow human being.

[/sarcasm]

I have a hard time taking you seriously, in case you hadn't noticed.

We could just take him at his word. Babies aren't the culpable party for pregnancy. Men are (since he eliminated a woman's culpability ).


We should execute any man who causes stretch marks!

[Jesse]

We could just take him at his word. Babies aren't the culpable party for pregnancy. Men are (since he eliminated a woman's culpability ).


We should execute any man who causes stretch marks!

But we gave you the Thighmaster. So it's a wash.

[QuantaFille]

Wow. You know you've won an argument when someone breaks out an Nazi comparison.

I find it interesting that we're the only ones who seem to see the similarities, and all of you find it laughable because they are "obviously different". Do you think that what the Nazis did was wrong? Serious question. Were they right to use the justifications they did? Was it morally acceptible to kill Jews for the reasons Nazis did? What makes one list of criteria for "personhood" correct, and another incorrect?

... That was the main justification for the "they're not human!" propaganda.

I don't expect this to satisfy you, and I'm you'll go ahead with the analogies. But I figured I'd give it a shot anyway.

Thank you! Good job, you're halfway there. Now tell me, what is the reasoning for declaring unborn children "not human", and how is it different from the Nazis' reasoning (on a moral level, i.e. why is it an acceptable reason and the Nazis' isn't)?

[Sea of red]

I find it interesting that we're the only ones who seem to see the similarities, and all of you find it laughable because they are "obviously different". Do you think that what the Nazis did was wrong? Serious question. Were they right to use the justifications they did? Was it morally acceptible to kill Jews for the reasons Nazis did? What makes one list of criteria for "personhood" correct, and another incorrect?

What do you think my answers are? You know what I'm going to say so I won't bother answering this obviously rhetorical question that's sole purpose is to make a false equivalency. It's a silly game that goes nowhere. Nothing I can say will make you stop doing it so I won't even make an attempt and explaining this to you.

Thank you! Good job, you're halfway there. Now tell me, what is the reasoning for declaring unborn children "not human", and how is it different from the Nazis' reasoning (on a moral level, i.e. why is it an acceptable reason and the Nazis' isn't)?

Again, nothing is going to make you stop this crap. You're hell bent on demonizing your opposition by any means necessary and if that means painting them as Nazi's, then you're going to do it - even if the analogy is a forced one. When you stop with trying to compare my position to the worst possible evil you can draw parallels to, then maybe we can a serious conversation.

[mossrose]

When you stop with trying to compare my position to the worst possible evil you can draw parallels to, then maybe we can a serious conversation.

Your position is far worse than the extermination of Jews by hitler and his ilk.

At least his prey could have fought back if they had chosen to. Or, at very least, defended themselves.

[Sea of red]

Your position is far worse than the extermination of Jews by hitler and his ilk.

At least his prey could have fought back if they had chosen to. Or, at very least, defended themselves.

Is this the best you can do?

[QuantaFille]

What do you think my answers are? You know what I'm going to say so I won't bother answering this obviously rhetorical question that's sole purpose is to make a false equivalency. It's a silly game that goes nowhere. Nothing I can say will make you stop doing it so I won't even make an attempt and explaining this to you.

I don't ask rhetorical questions. When I ask a question, it's because I'd like an answer. When you refuse to answer, I have to assume you don't have one. I'd rather think that you all have thought this through, and that you have sound, solid, well-thought-out reasons for believing the way you do. However, I have yet to meet an abortionist who has, or one who is willing to discuss it with their opposition. You just laugh and mock when the Nazi comparison comes up, so to us it appears obvious you've not thought out the connection. All of you say it's obvious that it's not the same thing, but you won't explain why your justifications for the "not human" claim are valid. That is what was lacking in your reply to me. We all (I hope) agree that the Nazis didn't have a leg to stand on in justifying that claim, but none of you will explain why YOU can justify the claim. Even setting aside the Nazis or any other group who has declared a people group "not human", and standing without any comparison to anyone, what justification do you use to validate your claim that a specific subgroup of humanity is not really human?

Again, nothing is going to make you stop this crap. You're hell bent on demonizing your opposition by any means necessary and if that means painting them as Nazi's, then you're going to do it - even if the analogy is a forced one. When you stop with trying to compare my position to the worst possible evil you can draw parallels to, then maybe we can a serious conversation.

Killing innocent children out of convenience and as a result of irresponsibility is, in my opinion, the worst possible evil I can think of. The Nazis look like Mother Theresa in comparison. I can't seriously believe you would think I'd see it any other way. And nothing any of you has said so far has changed my mind or even given me pause. Do you want to try? (<- Not a rhetorical question)

[Jaecp]

You really shouldn't assume its because people dont have answers when you're bringing up hitler on the internet

Are you, like, new to the internet?

[Jedidiah]

Is this the best you can do?

Well, she is doing better than you are.

[Jedidiah]

You really shouldn't assume its because people dont have answers when you're bringing up hitler on the internet

Are you, like, new to the internet?

In this case Hitler is an appropriate comparison.