Death

[rogue06]

Ah! Tracie Harris will explain all (if you are interested):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwp-sD_CZOA

Care to summarize? Otherwise that's nothing but argument by weblink which is not allowed.

[JonathanL]

The thing is, seer, nobody comes back from the dead to tell us.

*cough*Jesus*cough*

I'm sorry, I think I got something stuck in my throat. Please go on trolling.

[whag]

Yes let's do. On that long, lonely dark night when you are drawing your last breaths and the memories of your sins engulf your mind like the billows of a great funeral pyre from where will your solace come FF as it dawns on you with certainty that you will face a Holy God?

Muslims and Mormons (etc) manage to concoct that solace just fine on their deathbeds. I think FF will be okay.

Consider that billions of our animistic ancestors who worshiped birds and constellations experienced death and didn't think the prospect so horrible. You're projecting your archaic nightmare onto those you witness to, just like those clergy who tried to intimidate Darwin with veiled supernatural threats.

[whag]

I look at it like this: if dying is like falling asleep, then we have no reason to be afraid. The oft-used canard that religion is motivated by fear of death just doesn't make sense.

Mammals tend to be afraid. If you don;t fear death somewhat, there's something special about you. Some Muslims (etc) actually like to die, and that's not really something I envy.

If death, however, involves a judgement, I think we should be afraid. I've done things I'm not proud of, as I think most of us have. Having to answer for them isn't going to be pleasant.

There’s no justification whatsoever to attributing fear of death with fear of a Christian judgment. Rather, we’re mammals with a sophisticated contextual understanding of what death entails. Despite this, many suicidal people and non-Christian people do welcome it.

[whag]

BTW, “… the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.." - CS Lewis – a man who does not know what he is.

Lewis was a notorious sophist, perhaps as a compromise to appeal to common people.

[37818]

Ah! Tracie Harris will explain all (if you are interested):

49 minutes and 28 seconds.

Instead calling it religions, let us call it belief systems. Which is what is being dealt with. Atheism in its own various forms is a set of belief systems too. The problems are human.

[Jichard]

Let’s talk about death.

Yes let's do. On that long, lonely dark night when you are drawing your last breaths and the memories of your sins engulf your mind like the billows of a great funeral pyre from where will your solace come FF as it dawns on you with certainty that you will face a Holy God?

It's sort of sad that you're trying to scare people through an appeal to fear. Sad, but telling. Do you think everyone is so child-like as to fall for what you're doing? Not everyone is like you, seer; not everyone leaps to their position out of fear of death, fear of punishment, etc.

"No Atheists in Foxholes: Motivated Reasoning and Religious Belief"
static.squarespace.com/static/5014cf5ce4b006ef411a1485/t/5044073ce4b0991b726a57f1/1346635580839/

"Recent research has focused on motivational bases of political ideology. It is plausible that similar factors may drive the formation of religious ideology. Though explanations of the existence of religious beliefs in terms of their satisfaction of psychological needs date back centuries, limited empirical research exists linking motivated reasoning to religious belief. I thoroughly review existing research on the role of motivation in the formation of religious belief systems, specifically research related to the relationship between fear of death and afterlife belief. Then I present the results of two original, experimental studies investigating the hypothesis that fear of death leads to greater religious belief. In Study 1, participants who were asked to write short essays about death reported greater belief in an afterlife than did participants who wrote essays on a neutral topic. Study 2 replicated this finding and also showed that increased fear of death leads to greater belief in God [emphasis added]. The results of the studies suggest that a more parsimonious motivated reasoning account may explain the relationship between fear of death and afterlife belief better than one based on Terror Management Theory. Taken together, findings support the notion that some religious beliefs can be usefully explained in motivational terms."

[whag]

It's sort of sad that you're trying to scare people through an appeal to fear. Sad, but telling. Do you think everyone is so child-like as to fall for what you're doing? Not everyone is like you, seer; not everyone leaps to their position out of fear of death, fear of punishment, etc.

"No Atheists in Foxholes: Motivated Reasoning and Religious Belief"
static.squarespace.com/static/5014cf5ce4b006ef411a1485/t/5044073ce4b0991b726a57f1/1346635580839/

"Recent research has focused on motivational bases of political ideology. It is plausible that similar factors may drive the formation of religious ideology. Though explanations of the existence of religious beliefs in terms of their satisfaction of psychological needs date back centuries, limited empirical research exists linking motivated reasoning to religious belief. I thoroughly review existing research on the role of motivation in the formation of religious belief systems, specifically research related to the relationship between fear of death and afterlife belief. Then I present the results of two original, experimental studies investigating the hypothesis that fear of death leads to greater religious belief. In Study 1, participants who were asked to write short essays about death reported greater belief in an afterlife than did participants who wrote essays on a neutral topic. Study 2 replicated this finding and also showed that increased fear of death leads to greater belief in God [emphasis added]. The results of the studies suggest that a more parsimonious motivated reasoning account may explain the relationship between fear of death and afterlife belief better than one based on Terror Management Theory. Taken together, findings support the notion that some religious beliefs can be usefully explained in motivational terms."

Interestingly, before Ted Haggard's dalliance with male escorts, he was interviewed about what makes Christians so happy and content. He said it's because they have great sex and that the death issue has been taken care of.

[hamster]

It's perfectly rational to be afraid that ultimately every pain, struggle, accomplishment, and ambition was as meaningless as a bird flying into a window. And most people reject the notion that they should be satisfied that a few of their body's molecules will replicate on the planet before it's eventually absorbed by the sun.

Oh, and you're only eating because you're afraid of starving to death

[firstfloor]

Care to summarize? Otherwise that's nothing but argument by weblink which is not allowed.

She gives examples of families of different faiths in which love of god and tradition is put above love of family and atheist members either live in fear of rejection, having to pretend a faith or are actually cast out. An interesting case of a Sikh is mentioned where a son is told that his parents would be dead to him if he cut his hair.

That we notice what is going on and we disapprove is perhaps a sign that propagation of religion by control of families is breaking down.

[firstfloor]

*cough*Jesus*cough*

I'm sorry, I think I got something stuck in my throat. Please go on trolling.

Even in your theory Jesus is the singular incarnated God. His resurrection, if true, shows you what gods can do but not what you can do.

However:

“The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.”

But:

“... there are some standing here, which shall not taste death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” – but the revolutionary movement was wiped out so Jesus was human after all – just as you would expect. Not that there is anything wrong with a bit of hero worship.

All I can say is that I am surprised that you are convinced by this stuff.

I think there is an important difference between those people who are tolerant but find that their religious practice helps them in a practical way to live well and those who think that they own the one true faith and are intolerant of others and think their faith gives them permission to throw homosexuals off rooftops and the like. That second group need to be talked to.

[shunyadragon]

First Floor, you need to get a new hobby. Perhaps something where you don't seem so entirely stupid...

The usual ridicule without substance.

[Tassman]

It's perfectly rational to be afraid that ultimately every pain, struggle, accomplishment, and ambition was as meaningless as a bird flying into a window.

Oh, doesn't your “bird flying into a window” have eternal life?

What hubris to imagine that only Homo sapiens have eternal life and how sad that you cannot find meaning in a life that’s not eternal.

And most people reject the notion that they should be satisfied that a few of their body's molecules will replicate on the planet before it's eventually absorbed by the sun.

They may “reject the notion”, but this doesn't mean that it’s not a fact.

Oh, and you're only eating because you're afraid of starving to death.

Eating provides pleasure and purpose. And “every pain, struggle, accomplishment, and ambition” (to quote you), provides meaning and purpose to our transient life.

The usual ridicule without substance.

It's all they've got.

[tabibito]

But:

“... there are some standing here, which shall not taste death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” – but the revolutionary movement was wiped out so Jesus was human after all – just as you would expect. Not that there is anything wrong with a bit of hero worship.

All I can say is that I am surprised that you are convinced by this stuff.

Ah yes - that old furphy.

Three different authors, three different presentations of the same statement, Matthew's seemingly at odds with the others, even probably at odds with the others: Mark and Luke pointing to Pentecost, the precise wording for these not being an issue.

Then to Matthew presenting a difficulty insofar as the "failed prophecy" story would have it, independently of any discrepancies between the accounts. The original statements being written in Koine Greek, it is a matter of determining which word has been translated as "come". That word is ερχομαι (erchomai) which, meaning "come", "go", or "be present at/in", doesn't have a direct translation into English (Japanese, yes: irassharu). In the case of Matthew's record it is difficult to show that the target is Pentecost, but but very easy to show a connexion with Jesus' ascension 40 days after the resurrection. Either way - no failed prophecy, but a charge of probable discrepancy can't be denied.

[seer]

Why on earth would anyone 'Amen' this rubbish? FF is no more likely to become certain of meeting your god than you are to become certain of being devoured by Apep or flayed by Xipe Totec. When are you going to learn that to non-believers your religion has no precedence over the others?

And what will you do Roy on that fateful day when you stand naked before the Righteous Judge of the universe? When all your justifications are blown away like so much dust, and your sin leaves you exposed with nothing to recommend you to your Creator. When His ears will be deaf as an adder to your terror filled pleas. But try to play the man Roy - walk into Hell with your head held high....