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On The Duggars

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  • On The Duggars

    My thoughts on the Duggars.

    The link can be found here.

    The text is as follows:

    What are my thoughts on the Duggar happenings? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Okay. Let's state some things up front.

    I understand the Duggars have a TV show. I've never watched it. I don't really care to. It doesn't interest me at all.

    I also of course know about the information about Josh Duggar molesting his sisters when he was younger. I happen to know that most people didn't mind broadcasting that everywhere though I'm sure his sisters certainly didn't appreciate it.

    I also know that Josh Duggar had a position with the Family Research Council. I am saying nothing about them other than their being seen as a conservative organization. I also know that he had an account on Ashley Madison and was unfaithful to his wife Anna. I think everything I've said so far is accepted and there are no major debates on those issues.

    So let's get down to what it means.

    First off, Josh Duggar has been charged with being a hypocrite. That charge is absolutely true, but there's something interesting about it. The only way you can be a hypocrite is if you really do have some moral standards that you are expected to live by. In this case, Christians are therefore expected to honor the union of one man and one woman in marriage. We are supposed to be champions of the sanctity of marriage whether we're married or not. We are supposed to walk as Jesus walked. If you are someone who does not have any moral standards at all, you cannot be called a hypocrite.

    Second, the things that Josh Duggar has done are in fact evil. Let's not deny that for a second. Let's not pretend that what he's done is no big deal. No. It is a huge deal. Molesting sisters at a younger age is a big deal. Being a hypocrite is a big deal. Engaging in sexual sin and being unfaithful to your wife who you promised to be in a sacred covenant with is a big deal. There are reasons why people do such things of course, but there can be no justification for them. When Christians speak of justification, we never mean to say that sin is justified. Sin never is. We mean that sinners are put in right relationship with God. They are forgiven, but they can only be forgiven if they have done something that needs to be forgiven and they have repented for.

    So let's get down to some major issues.

    There are many critics of the marriage movement today that talk about how Christians are all for the sanctity of marriage supposedly and yet they have a high rate of divorce and adultery and any other sins in their own marriages.

    Let's not take that lightly.

    Yes. I know about Shaunti Feldhahn's research on Christian marriages that shows that marriages that attend church together, study the Bible together, pray together, and just take Christianity seriously together are far less prone to divorce. I know about this and I agree with it. That does not change the reality that Christians divorce. Whenever divorce happens, we should see it as a tragedy.

    "But Nick! Sometimes women and children are being abused in marriages by husbands who are just awful and the wives end up divorcing so they and their children can be safe. Are you saying that's a tragedy?"

    Yep. Absolutely.

    Why?

    It's a tragedy that two people who enter into the most sacred union between a man and a woman and make a covenant before God and men to love and honor each other until death do them part and give themselves to each other in an exclusive union reach the point where they can't even live together and especially because of fear of serious harm to one of them. That is a tragedy. In fact, even in cases where I would have recommended the woman clear out of there and get a divorce to keep her and her children safe, I would still say that it was a tragedy because marriage should never have to come to that.

    Yet at the same time, there is something highly admirable about what Josh's wife is doing. She is working to forgive and to move on. You know what? This will take time. This is hard no doubt, but marriage should be a place where forgiveness is a virtue held in high esteem. Anna could easily leave Josh right now and frankly, she'd be biblically justified in doing so, but while divorce is an option in her case, it is not a necessity and she has indeed chosen to honor marriage. It's easy to honor marriage when both parties are doing everything that they ought to do right. It's not as easy when one or both is not doing so.

    In marriage, you are to forgive and you are to live in grace and that is honoring the sanctity of marriage. Marriage is a union where you honor the other person. Too often in marriage, we look at what the other person is doing for us. Instead, we must always ask what we are doing for the other person. You see, if people say we were damaging the sanctity of marriage first through divorce and adultery, they're right. We were doing that. If we weren't, we were allowing it. Now of course, I'm not saying we shouldn't have grace for people who sin and repent, we absolutely must have grace.

    In fact, that could be part of the scandal of what's happening.

    You see, the world is starting to learn that we Christians really believe in this thing called forgiveness. When the shooting happened in South Carolina, we saw that Christians were rushing out not to condemn but to forgive. With Josh Duggar, when he repented and confessed, that was enough. Sure, he might have consequences like losing his job and such and sure, he will lose trust, but that does not mean we want to punish him. We do not delight in bringing about suffering to him. Christians actually believe in reconciliation.

    We believe in it because this is what Jesus did for us.

    Anything we do to one another, we know that it cannot compare to what we have done to God. Whatever we might do to one another, we have done far worse to God, and God has forgiven us in Christ of all that we do. If God forgives us, we are obligated to forgive one another. For the Christian, forgiveness is not optional. It is mandatory. Walking as Jesus walked is not an option. It is a requirement. Christians are to be people whose lives are marked by forgiveness and we can only truly do that when we realize just how much we've been forgiven.

    Forgiveness does not mean we condone the wrong that was done. We don't. It means we value the relationship involved more and we don't want to focus on the wrong that was done. That doesn't mean that we're foolhardy. It doesn't mean a woman immediately reconciles with an abusive husband, but it should mean they are open to taking those steps if possible. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting. It does mean that there should be change on the part of the person who has been forgiven. It means that they should go and sin no more and when we realize that someone forgives us of a great wrong, we should seek to want to properly honor that person. We should all seek then to immensely honor Christ for what He's forgiven us.

    Marriage should be one of the main places where that happens. Marriage should be a place where we seek to please each other more than we seek to please ourselves and any time any of us look to our own pleasure and don't seek the pleasure of our spouse, we are really ceasing to do marriage. Reality is we will all do this from time to time. This is also why it's important to know how best to love and honor your spouse. Try and find little things even you can do that will help them along the way.

    The reason the world does not honor the sanctity of marriage is that we went a long way to treating marriage like something common instead of the amazing and incredible union that it is. Part of having a good apologetic for marriage is going to be our doing marriage well. The best we can realize is to know what the way is and to walk in it. We are to do what we are told. We have too many people breaking apart because they do not feel like they are in love any more or any other such reason like that. It does not matter if you don't feel like you are in love. Your marriage is not built on you being in love but on you being in covenant. That covenant should produce love, but the covenant is the foundation of the love.

    If we want to present an excellent apologetic for marriage, one of the best ways to do that would be to be living great marriages out and part of that is going to be the scandal of forgiveness that takes place and living forgiveness out. We must make marriage a place of love. It can too often look like we didn't care about marriage until the homosexuals came for it. It looks more often like we're more interested in chicken sandwiches and Duck Dynasty than we are in marriage.

    That must change.

    We must never condone what Josh did, but gosh, maybe more of us could be like his wife.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    I don't think wanting to forgive someone whose cheated is wrong. However, Having been through marital unfaithfulness, I would probably be one to leave. Tragedy? yes, but after a careful study of the Quiverfull and patriarchy movement, I'm not convinced that abuse isn't happening. The probability that this is a case of get counseling or get these kids to a safer place is on the higher side. however...I hope they go for counseling and do not shun honest professional help.
    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
    George Bernard Shaw

    Comment


    • #3
      This was the single most disappointing post I've seen from you Nick. You're attacking a strawman, no one is claming that Josh can't get right with God, though honestly I do question his contrition as he doesn't seem to expect any consequences for his actions.

      People are talking about justice, and him owning up to the fact that he abused his sisters and protecting the community from him. Apparently, according to you, if you've molested someone, its enought to just go "I'm sorry, forgive me"

      You then make a veiled accusation, that those who are morally outraged by the faux piety of the Duggar family, and Josh Duggar getting away with his crimes, are those attacking marriage? I'm a Catholic, and I'm very much in support of marriage. I'm not sure what group you're responding to Nick. Its not just atheist who are outraged by this.

      Secondly, you don't get to just say "We shouldn't downplay what Josh did..." and then go ahead and do that for the rest of post. You start out saying its bad and can't be diminished, but at the end you seem to say that he's forgiven, and no one has any right to ask critical questions about the lack consequences for this.

      Mercy is important, I agree. But mercy requires truth. There is no mercy without it.
      Last edited by Leonhard; 08-24-2015, 05:54 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        The psychologist Dr Keith Ablow says more or less what I think about this.

        Comment


        • #5
          I've noticed some of the Christians seeking to downplay this story are focusing on his reality TV career. I agree reality TV isn't important. But his political advocacy is. He has made a mockery of the causes he upheld, and non-Christians can easily dismiss advocacy at the hands of groups such as the Family Research Council by pointing to things like this.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            I've noticed some of the Christians seeking to downplay this story are focusing on his reality TV career. I agree reality TV isn't important. But his political advocacy is. He has made a mockery of the causes he upheld, and non-Christians can easily dismiss advocacy at the hands of groups such as the Family Research Council by pointing to things like this.
            We can dismiss even more of the claimed moral highground not just from Duggar's hypocrisy, but from the mainstream movements desire to protect him instead of letting him actually pay for anything.

            What is it with patriarchal Christianity and sex crimes?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
              What is it with patriarchal Christianity and sex crimes?
              Same question could be asked about atheists. Oh wait, I forgot that atheists never committed rapes, or sexual harrasments. That whole experience Rebecca Watson went through in an elevator never happened, and there weren't tons of atheists who went out of their way to criticize her and rust to defend the guy who did it.

              Male Right Movement, is all I'm saying.

              Stop your gloating you hypocrite.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hypocrite?

                You really want to compare elevator-gate and it's aftermath with any prominent example of sexual assault in the church? It's late, Leo, try to avoid lighting a strawman on fire right before bed, the light makes it hard to sleep. Never rape? Yes, that totally sounds like something I'd say.

                Seriously man, your go to example is when a man was hitting on a women, she said it made her uncomfortable later on the internet, and a bunch of atheists argued a ton about social boundaries? You're also describing it inaccurately. A bunch of people also defended her. It split the community. You have to keep in mind though that the single biggest bit of harm that the instigating incident had going for it was making someone uncomfortable. The after effects I'm not going to guess on, but what happened in the elevator is agreed on. Man hit on women. Women rebuffed. Man left. Seriously? The question here is actually complicated.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Leon. I wrote what I wrote not because I'm particularly interested in their situation, but because I have seen a number of atheists, including one Allie and I know well, post about this and say "And yet it's homosexuals destroying the sanctity of marriage." I leave the political ramifications to those interested, but my main point is about commitment, something Allie released a blog on today.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                    Leon. I wrote what I wrote not because I'm particularly interested in their situation, but because I have seen a number of atheists, including one Allie and I know well, post about this and say "And yet it's homosexuals destroying the sanctity of marriage." I leave the political ramifications to those interested, but my main point is about commitment, something Allie released a blog on today.
                    You responded too quickly as a sort of damage control. For all you know, the best thing for Anna is to leave this fake Christian celebrity and start over. God even gives her permission to do so.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      Same question could be asked about atheists. Oh wait, I forgot that atheists never committed rapes, or sexual harrasments. That whole experience Rebecca Watson went through in an elevator never happened, and there weren't tons of atheists who went out of their way to criticize her and rust to defend the guy who did it.

                      Male Right Movement, is all I'm saying.

                      Stop your gloating you hypocrite.
                      This is why I shouldn't amen things at 3 in the morning, I only read the first two sentences. Then I read jaecp's post and read the rest.
                      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                        Anything we do to one another, we know that it cannot compare to what we have done to God. Whatever we might do to one another, we have done far worse to God, and God has forgiven us in Christ of all that we do. If God forgives us, we are obligated to forgive one another. For the Christian, forgiveness is not optional. It is mandatory. Walking as Jesus walked is not an option. It is a requirement. Christians are to be people whose lives are marked by forgiveness and we can only truly do that when we realize just how much we've been forgiven.

                        Forgiveness does not mean we condone the wrong that was done. We don't. It means we value the relationship involved more and we don't want to focus on the wrong that was done. That doesn't mean that we're foolhardy. It doesn't mean a woman immediately reconciles with an abusive husband, but it should mean they are open to taking those steps if possible. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting. It does mean that there should be change on the part of the person who has been forgiven. It means that they should go and sin no more and when we realize that someone forgives us of a great wrong, we should seek to want to properly honor that person. We should all seek then to immensely honor Christ for what He's forgiven us.
                        I don't see what forgiveness has to do with us. It's up to his wife and sisters to forgive him since he hasn't really done anything to the rest of us. On my end I don't want to see the loser's face representing any cause I share with him ever again. He has a lot to repent for and even if he does he is not owed any trust. If he is genuinely repentant he will understand this and stay out of the public spotlight.
                        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                          I have seen a number of atheists, including one Allie and I know well, post about this and say "And yet it's homosexuals destroying the sanctity of marriage."
                          The proper response to this is not to reason with it (since it's a stupid, loaded statement, not a rational argument) and respond with rhetoric (if at all). Posting that picture floating around of the gay couple who was given a glowing editorial before they turned out to be running a child prostitution ring, for example.
                          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
                            What is it with patriarchal Christianity and sex crimes?
                            There's no such thing as a sex crime in matriarchal atheism?
                            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              Same question could be asked about atheists. Oh wait, I forgot that atheists never committed rapes, or sexual harrasments. That whole experience Rebecca Watson went through in an elevator never happened, and there weren't tons of atheists who went out of their way to criticize her and rust to defend the guy who did it.
                              What, when a guy asked her back to his room for coffee and she said no and then nothing happened between them?

                              Male Right Movement, is all I'm saying.
                              Which has what to do with committing sex crimes exactly?

                              Comment

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