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Death Two

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  • Death Two

    Yes, I know there is a thread about this in the Apologetics section, but it is all regarding Christianity.

    In Judaism, death is a natural part of G-d's Creation. Our deaths, like our lives, have meaning and are all part of G-d's plan. There is a general belief in the afterlife, though there is much diversity of thought over the specifics of the afterlife.

    Judaism believes that obsession with death ultimately devalues life. No one would fight against the evils and injustices of the world if this life is only a preparation for the world to come. Moses said See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil ... I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that you and your children may live. (D e u t. 30:15, 19). We already accept that life is good and death is bad, these are truisms. Yet these were not common ideas in the ancient world, they were revolutionary.

    In his teachings to the Jews, Moses does not focus on the afterlife or resurrection. He tells us something different altogether. You achieve immortality by being part of a covenant, a covenant with eternity itself, i.e. a covenant with G-d. Our faith is not like that of the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, or virtually every other civilization known to history. Judaism does do not find G-d in a realm beyond life or in mystic disengagement from the world or in philosophical contemplation. We find G-d in life. We find G-d in joy. To find G-d, you don't have to climb to heaven or cross the sea (D e u t. 30:12-13). G-d is here. G-d is now. G-d is life.

  • #2
    Do you mind if we change the title of the thread slightly so it doesn't create confusion with the other thread?

    Maybe, Death Too, or some such?



    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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    • #3
      OK

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        Do you mind if we change the title of the thread slightly so it doesn't create confusion with the other thread?

        Maybe, Death Too, or some such?

        Maybe died twice.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Scorching Wizard View Post
          [SIZE=1]... There is a general belief in the afterlife, though there is much diversity of thought over the specifics of the afterlife. ...
          Yes, with respect to diversity, I was surprised to learn about a fairly well represented belief in reincarnation among Jews. At first I thought this was merely among esoteric teachings of Kabbalah, eg, in the Zohar, but apparently it has been more widespread than that, eg, mentioned by Nachmanides.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            Yes, with respect to diversity, I was surprised to learn about a fairly well represented belief in reincarnation among Jews. At first I thought this was merely among esoteric teachings of Kabbalah, eg, in the Zohar, but apparently it has been more widespread than that, eg, mentioned by Nachmanides.
            As I understood it, Jews didn't (generally) believe in reincarnation, except with regard to the prophets: Return of Isaiah for example. It makes the opinion of Herod that John had made a comeback understandable.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              As I understood it, Jews didn't (generally) believe in reincarnation, except with regard to the prophets: Return of Isaiah for example. It makes the opinion of Herod that John had made a comeback understandable.
              I still do not think that belief in reincarnation is widespread among Jews throughout history, but it is apparently not limited to a belief about prophets.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                I still do not think that belief in reincarnation is widespread among Jews throughout history, but it is apparently not limited to a belief about prophets.
                Interesting, though it doesn't seem to have any immediate relevance ... but might be worth looking into.


                Aaaaand it seems that you are right. Reincarnation is commonly considered to be ongoing until the person completes the 600+ mitzvot.
                Last edited by tabibito; 09-03-2015, 12:22 PM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  As I understood it, Jews didn't (generally) believe in reincarnation, except with regard to the prophets: Return of Isaiah for example.
                  It depends on how you define reincarnation. One of the thirteen principles of Jewish Faith is a belief in the resurrection of the dead.
                  http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...s-of-Faith.htm

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    Reincarnation is commonly considered to be ongoing until the person completes the 600+ mitzvot.
                    I have no idea what you are talking about. No single person can complete all the mitzvot, it is physically impossible. The entire set of Laws are not applicable to all people. Some can only be done by females, some can only be done in Israel, some can only be done by Kings, and some can only be done in the as yet unbuilt Temple.
                    Last edited by Scorching Wizard; 09-04-2015, 10:54 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Scorching Wizard View Post
                      I have no idea what you are talking about. No single person can complete all the mitzvot, it is physically impossible. The entire set of Laws are not applicable to all people. Some can only be done by females, some can only be done in Israel, some can only be done by Kings, and some can only be done in the as yet unbuilt Temple.

                      Interesting - that information matched on two sites. (One Kabbalah, the other was seemingly at least an ordinary Israeli FAQ site.)

                      So - reincarnation can't involve a change of gender?
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Kabbalah is doctorate level studies, it is way over both our heads. To have chance of understanding true Kabbalah requires at least 20 years of study in Judaism. http://www.jewfaq.org/kabbalah.htm

                        Readings in this area should be undertaken with extreme caution. There is entirely too much literature out there under the name "Kabbalah" that has little or nothing to do with the true Jewish teachings on this subject. Any book on the subject of practical Kabbalah should be disregarded immediately; no legitimate source would ever make such teachings available to a faceless mass audience. Books written by Christians should be viewed with extreme skepticism, because many Christian sources have reinterpreted Kabbalah to fit into Christian dogma.
                        I don't know the answer to that reincarnation question.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Scorching Wizard View Post
                          Kabbalah is doctorate level studies, it is way over both our heads. To have chance of understanding true Kabbalah requires at least 20 years of study in Judaism. http://www.jewfaq.org/kabbalah.htm
                          From 30,000 feet, it shows a marked affinity to Christian Gnosticism, as well as Neoplatonic thought (which heavily stressed the transcendence of G-d).
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Scorching Wizard View Post
                            Kabbalah is doctorate level studies, it is way over both our heads. To have chance of understanding true Kabbalah requires at least 20 years of study in Judaism. http://www.jewfaq.org/kabbalah.htm



                            I don't know the answer to that reincarnation question.
                            I do not believe the understanding of any scripture or writings should not only for scholars.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              I do not believe the understanding of any scripture or writings should not only for scholars.
                              I believe that is a silly statement.

                              Do you believe that everyone has the same understanding as the experts in any field (such as mathematics, physics, engineering, or neurology)? Obviously not. So why believe that everyone should have the same understanding as the experts in religion?

                              Comment

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